Interview #3: Amy Eliza Wong - The Elation of Living on Purpose

Amy Wong, an executive leadership coach, shares her journey and insights on living on purpose. She discusses her background growing up in a rock and roll nightclub, her love for teaching and empowering others, and how she became an executive leadership coach. Amy emphasizes the importance of communication in leadership and how it can transform individuals and organizations. 

She also talks about her book, 'Living on Purpose,' which explores the fundamental principles and perceptual shifts needed to unlock one's potential and thrive. In this conversation, Amy Wong discusses her book 'Always on Purpose' and the process of making deliberate choices to find meaning and joy in life. 

She shares how she came up with the book title and the importance of choosing titles that resonate with readers. Amy also talks about the misconception of perceiving life as mere survival and the power of making deliberate choices at the level of perception. 

She highlights the influence of spiritual leaders in her book and the intersection between science and spirituality. Amy credits her parents and her husband for their support and guidance in her journey. She concludes by emphasizing that happiness and freedom come from taking control of our own perceptions and making choices that align with our true selves.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction: Amy Wong, a Force of Nature

07:17 Discovering the Love for Teaching and Empowerment

26:19 Living on Purpose: A Guide to a Purposeful Life

33:40 Perception and Deliberate Choices

43:25 Support and Guidance from Family and Friends

Full Transcript

Intro / Rick Barron (00:02)

For over 10 years, Amy Wong has been igniting corporate boardrooms and stoking the fires of leadership at organizations like LinkedIn, Facebook, in addition to universities and nonprofits. As an executive leadership coach, one would think Amy's approach to her workshops is just for the select few at the corporate home. 

Oh, contraire! 

You see, her philosophy is a rally call. For every individual with a burning desire to shatter self-imposed limitations and truly make their mark on this world. Amy is a true force of nature, inspiring people to awaken to their power, their truth, and ultimately their joy. 

She's a master at guiding you how to heighten self-awareness, increase trust, and transform static corporate cultures into thriving communities of collaboration and innovation. 

I mean, it's like this girl has a magic wand, turning the mundane into the extraordinary. 

Ah, but wait, there's more. Amy has written a fantastic book that will guide you on a journey on how to begin living on purpose that we'll be talking about today. 

Hi, everyone. I'm Rick Barron, your host, and welcome to my podcast, That's Life, I Swear. Please join me today as I have my conversation with the wonderful and blazing personality, Amy Wong. Amy, welcome to the show.

Amy Wong (01:31)

Oh, thank you, God. That was the most fantastic introduction I think I've ever had. I'm going to have you come with me every time I walk into a room. That was great. It was awesome. Oh, Rick, it's such a pleasure. I'm so excited for this.

Rick Barron (01:39)

Oh, okay. I'm, hire me. Oh, thank you. I know I've been waiting a long time to have the opportunity and, more so with everything that you've accomplished. So, to kind of break the ice, I'm just gonna ask you a crazy question from, my research, I found that your parents bought a nightclub. What can you share with the audience, you know, kind of a broad overview of how that came about and what happened?

Amy Wong (02:06)

Yeah, so this was a long time ago. It was before, yeah, before I was born. But my, so I have to say, my folks are fantastic. They are just the most fun, amazing people. They've been married over 50 years now. They're best friends. I know, I know. And, you know, they, the secret to life I'm finding from them is that they always find a way to laugh at things, you know, instead of freaking out.

Rick Barron (02:23)

Wow.

Amy Wong (02:37)

They're just, they're fantastic. And my dad is a rock and roll drummer. He's phenomenal. He is a phenomenal. And so, music was a huge part of their early lives and he used to perform and was in bands. And so, they had this dream to open up a rock and roll nightclub and that's what they did. And so, they opened it in the seventies and it was the hottest bar.

Rick Barron (02:52)

Yeah.

Amy Wong (03:05)

rock and roll bar in all of Northern California for quite some time. And so, the little-known fact is that I was raised in a bar, which explains everything.

Rick Barron (03:05)

Hahaha

Rick Barron (03:19)

Okay, so for the benefit of the audience, can you share a little bit about your background and how you became an executive leadership coach? I mean, how did all of this unfold?

Amy Wong (03:30)

Yeah. Well, gosh, there's a lot to share here. Well, so I discovered I really loved math and I was obsessed with music. I played piano and I practiced upwards of no less than four hours a day. That was through my childhood and I was obsessed and I was also obsessed with math.

Rick Barron (03:33)

Yeah.

Amy Wong (03:58)

What I discovered early on is I really loved teaching both. I loved it. And it's funny, it wasn't long ago, I was reflecting on this and I was asking my kids about this and I asked some friends. I remember sitting in class, like in every class I had in elementary school, whether it was third grade or fourth grade or fifth grade. And I remember being really critical about how my teacher was teaching the class. 

And I would think to myself, you know, I wouldn't use this system if I was doing this. And I probably wouldn't do it this way, but oh, if I did teach, I would definitely do it the way Mr. Beams doing it in this way. And so, I was always really, I was thinking so strategically about how I would be teaching if I were in those shoes. And I asked my kids, I was like, do you do that? And they looked at me like I had two heads. So, I don't know, I just, I think I've, part of the fabric of my being is I just, I love to teach. 

Rick Barron (04:38)

Right.

Amy Wong (04:51)

I love to empower people to ideas and principles and things that weren't accessible before. I discovered that in teaching math and music through high school. So, it was extremely lucrative. And then it just kind of snowballed. And then I found myself, you know, I was always drawn to roles that required me to translate what we were dealing with and make it palatable for people to understand and then do something with it.

Rick Barron (04:57)

Right.

Amy Wong (05:19)

I did that all through high school. I taught in college. So, I went to Cal and I was a UGSI and undergraduate student instructor for math and absolutely loved it. And then now I'm working at Sun Microsystems which is where you and I met. I was working for your amazing wife and best years, truly best years of my career learned so much from Judy and everyone else. And you know, I...

Rick Barron (05:36)

Thank you.

Amy Wong (05:47)

I got to share this and I remember when I shared this with you not long ago, you were shocked, you had no idea, but you were pivotal, Rick, in me entering into this field because I remember you walked into my office and we talked often, we had such lovely conversations and it was so fun. And you asked me something to the effect of, you know, what do you really want to do? And it was so out of left field for me to share with you what I wanted to do, because I never really opened up because it just sounded so out of left field. But what I told you, I was like, you know what I really want to do? So, I want to be a motivational speaker. And you and you didn't but you didn't flinch. You didn't bat it out. You were just like, yeah, of course. And you're like, and by the way, have you heard of this field called coaching? It's kind of relatively, you know, it's interesting. It's kind of new. It's getting popular. And this was like in the early, you know, like or not early 90s, like 90s. And so.

Rick Barron (06:04)

Right.

Amy Wong (06:41)

I looked at you and I thought, no, what is this? And you started to explain how leaders have these people called coaches that really help them be their best selves and be the best leader they can be. And I just, and I was so fascinated, but you know what? I'm certain what happened was I just, I put that in the subconscious Rolodex. I thought that's interesting. And I'm gonna just kinda, and I think, and it got filed away, but there was always this, this note, this deeper knowing that there is a rollout there for me that's going to be able to combine my love of logic and teaching and empowerment and business. And I'm just going to trust that. So, thank you, friend. Yeah, you're a big part of it.

Rick Barron (06:52)

All right.

Rick Barron (07:24)

That's great. Oh, I'm glad I walked in that day. Oh my gosh. So, having gone as far as you have thus far, but when you started coaching and teaching, what did you learn from that first stepping stone into your new journey? Whether it was a keynote speech, coaching, workshop, what was it that you learned from that first beginning?

Amy Wong (07:53)

Hmm. Gosh, you know, that's a great question because when I look back at the, I've been doing this for 14 years now, it's like there've been many, there've been many little beginnings, like little pivotal shifts in the journey that have gotten me here. And I would say, you know, there were two, I would have to say there were two pivotal moments that, that I think have led me here. 

The first was, I started my practice, I started coaching in 2010, founded Always on Purpose in 2011, and it just started to take off like wildfire. And now, and I'm just, and I'm, oh man, I am, and to this day, I still am on cloud nine. Every day feels like a miracle to me. And it was in 2016, no, sorry, 2014, sorry, 2014, 2014. I'm coaching away, I've got...an amazing practice, I'm filled to the brim. And I get a call from a drug and rehab center in the area, and they had found me online and they said, "'Hey, we read all about you. "'You seem wonderful. "'Do you do group coaching?' And my eyes got really big. I was like, whoa, I've never done that, but I'd love to. Because I made a commitment.

Rick Barron (09:01)

Oh.

Amy Wong (09:20)

A long while back, it was something I heard from, I think it was Sergey in a commencement speech, like early on, this was well before I'm coaching, but he said, you know, always work hard on something uncomfortably exciting. And so, I took that to heart. And so, I'm always reaching for the uncomfortably exciting thing. And so that was uncomfortably exciting for me because I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I know nothing about this field. I've never done group coaching. I must do this. And so, they said, great.

Rick Barron (09:33)

Right.

Amy Wong (09:48)

That would be amazing. So, here's the deal. You're gonna be here once a week, two hours at a time. Once a week, you'll have 30 clients in the room. And it's not always gonna be the same 30 clients because people are graduating. So, every week you'll see new faces and every week faces will have graduated. But you'll always have 30. And I thought, oh my gosh, this is... wow, this is going to be hard because I can't have a shtick. 

I can't have like, you know, one thing I do, I walk in and I do it every time. Like I really, and so what that did for me was, oh my gosh, it did so much. It opened me up to real facilitation and man, I got my facilitation chops there. And because I had to be on my toes and then the amount of, I just, and then to dive so deep with that amount of people for that long.

Rick Barron (10:37)

Sure.

Amy Wong (10:44)

Oh, I learned so much about human nature and about what we're capable of and resiliency. And, oh man, the best way to describe how it felt every time I left a session every week, it felt like, and now, by the way, I'm not religious when I say this, but it just, I can only imagine, it felt like I was leaving church, right? It was just this, I was so alive and so connected and I was on cloud nine and I would always call my mom and my mama, that was just so amazing. So that was pivotal because...

Rick Barron (10:49)

Wow.

Amy Wong (11:14)

That to me told me I was on the right path and I'm doing what I'm meant to do. I'm meant to facilitate, I'm meant to lead, I'm meant to be in real time. This isn't about, this is, and to do this in groups, to do, to find and to tap into that power and that synergy of groups. So that's when it became possible and almost inevitable was that pivotal moment. And then shortly after that, maybe it was around, so then a year later, 2015,

Rick Barron (11:19)

Right.

Amy Wong (11:43)

A friend of mine was at a tech company in San Francisco and him and I were quite close and I did a lot of coaching conversations. He's like, you know what I mean? I think it would be amazing if we brought you in as just like the resident coach into our company. I'm going to pitch it. He pitched it to his VP of sales and I got on the phone with him and honestly, I don't even know what I'm doing. I've never done this before. 

I’m just like, let's make magic happen. I can work with your team. Like, this is great. And so, he loved the idea and I was stoked. And so essentially it was my first real corporate gig where we essentially, I was in the office for two days a week and I had office hours. And essentially, they gave me an office and- everybody had access to my schedule. And so, I was working with all the sales leader and my schedule would get so booked and it was back-to-back to back-to-back to back. 

And so, I'm coaching all of the leaders. And then, and it just, it was again, magical, just magical. And that, then that, that was the pivotal part where it was like, okay, I'm meant to do this in companies because the fundamental transformational stuff I've been doing with individuals absolutely needs to exist in companies within teams. And so that paved the way for everything that followed.

Rick Barron (13:14)

What a journey. I mean, conversation with me, phone call, coaching at the corporate, oh my gosh, that's amazing. Now, I've taken one of your courses up at Stanford. And I noticed I looked at some of the courses that you do teach and they all seem to be centered around communication. What led you to that focus and why?

Amy Wong (13:15)

Yeah.

Amy Wong (13:40)

Really good question, completely organic on my part. Now, I, just taking a step back, I'll tell you, I completely and only operate off inspiration. So, if, so everything that comes through my awareness comes through, I will act on it if it feels amazing, not because it sounds like a great idea. And so, I think because I'm so fascinated and just so passionate about empowerment and helping people thrive and helping them unlock what's inside of them and really to translate things in such a way so that possibility emerges for folks. I mean, that's really, to me, that's what teaching is about is how do I take something that you're not quite understanding and then translate it in a way that you can really for yourself see what it is you don't know that you don't know so that you can discover those unknowns and then empower yourself and then transcend.

Rick Barron (13:43)

Okay.

Amy Wong (14:40)

And so, I just, you know, I think it's one of those things just because I'm so passionate about it. It was a skill I developed. But side note, just to be clear, I really struggled with math, really struggled with math when I was young. I hated it and it was, and I wonder if, because I was really young for my grade, I was put in school a year early.

Rick Barron (14:42)

That can't be easy to do.

Amy Wong (15:06)

And so, I was always the youngest a year younger than everybody else. And I just wonder if psychological neurological development was not on my side at the time, but I really struggled. And oh, the insecurity, Rick, the feeling of, it's a debilitating feeling. And it wasn't until eighth turning into ninth grade that I really got a handle on this. And I thought, you know what? And it was, I credit my dad for this.

I had just finished Algebra 1 in eighth grade and I think I got a B. And I was going into a brand-new high school. It was an all-girls private high school, totally outside of the public district I was in. And I had the chance to go into Algebra 2. But he said to me, you know, Amy, it's probably not a bad idea to take it again. And I thought, oh, take it again. I don't want to take it again. Right.

Rick Barron (15:47)

Uh-huh.

Amy Wong (16:00)

But then I'm like, but I really, I trust my dad, I trust my parents when they've got wisdom, I'll take it. And I'm like, you know, it's probably not a bad idea. Okay, you know, why not? It's a whole different school system. I'm going into private school. This might be really hard, sure. But you know, it was the best thing I could have done because when I took it again, it was almost as if everything caught up to me and it clicked. 

And I saw it so deeply and understood it so deeply that when I went from this contrast of not getting it, and struggling to totally getting it, it put me into this place where, ah, okay, so now I can see where people's questions are coming from. When they're asking a question, I'm able to identify what it is they don't know that they don't know, because I was there. And so fine tuning that listening ability to listen for what it was they didn't know that they didn't know in their question started to really, because I started to teach it. So, I was head of tutoring business and I was teaching math constantly

Rick Barron (16:39)

Okay

Amy Wong (16:59)

to many different students. And so, I think that's where I find tuned this ability to listen for what was missing and what they were missing in their question. Yeah.

Rick Barron (17:10)

Wow, interesting. So, to that end, from the various executives that you've spoken to and you come into their corporate office to coach their staff and themselves, have you ever noticed, is there a particular trend that seems to pop up from what they're hoping to get out of the course that is going to help them?

Or is that too wide of a question?

Amy Wong (17:41)

No, it's a good question. It's, well, the trend on the surface, the trend is everybody wants to be more effective and more successful. And so, but that is, I mean, if you double click on that word, effective, and double click on successful, it's wildly different for everybody else. But really that is somewhat of a meta layer that really is reflective of something much deeper. And most folks don't, to have, well, they don't usually have the time and the space to reflect on, okay, well, what is it that I'm trying to solve? 

What is it that I absolutely, totally want? And so, on the surface, it's always that they wanna be more effective, they want better results, they wanna be more successful. Sometimes, and I think going back to your question around how did communication be part of it, it's everybody, whether they indirectly know this or not, everybody wants to get better at communication because on some level, we all get that this is where everything is happening. 

It's in this medium and we kind of take it for granted. And there's a lot of leaders that recognize, well, I can't take it for granted because this is the medium through which everything happens. And if I can get good at this, I can make anything happen. And so, for a lot of the work that I do, I get pulled in because that's a huge area of expertise and passion and competency of mine is all things communication. 

And so, whether that's a singular leader needing to improve their culture because they're getting the feedback that their leadership style is causing a lot of friction and lack of trust. I mean, that's all via their communication. It's not their personality. It's not their skills. It's totally their communication style. And so, I'll come in to solve that. Or it might be a team that needs to work better together. Or it might be two co-founders that are just having a heck of a time trying to find a way to collaborate and take their thinking to the next level, right? So...

Rick Barron (19:41)

Uh-huh.

Rick Barron (19:46)

Well, I'm sure you've been exposed to a lot here. Yeah.

Amy Wong (19:49)

Oh, yeah, a lot.

Rick Barron (19:53)

So, from your keynotes and your workshops and presentations, and this is kind of a kind of a segue into your book, from what you write, from what you teach in your workshops and your presentations, is much of that stuff drawn from your book or is there something else in addition?

Amy Wong (20:17)

I would say maybe...

Well, let's see. There's beyond my book for sure. So, my book are the fundamental principles and perceptual shifts that we need to make in order to truly unlock our potential and thrive. That's at a fundamental, fundamental perceptual level and the relationship we have with ourselves. Now, maybe about 30% of the work that I do in a workshop format or maybe even a keynote format might tap into that perceptual stuff.

Rick Barron (20:44)

Sure.

Amy Wong (20:52)

Now, what's interesting, leaders and businesses don't want to go, they don't immediately go, they're saying, okay, well, that's where we need to go to improve our bottom line. Because to them, most leaders and most businesses think they need to shift at the behavioral level, but that's not true. Right? And so, the book that I wrote is, how do we get to the root of what real success is? And we make those perceptual shifts.

Rick Barron (21:19)

Mm-hmm.

Amy Wong (21:21)

And then the behaviors just work themselves out. But a lot of people don't think that way. And so that's why I will get tapped for more of the communication stuff. So, I would say maybe 70% of the workshops and keynotes I give, it's at the communication layer. And because there's a whole world to understand and it's just fascinating to me, how communication works, the neurobiology of it. 

But here's what's cool, Rick, it's all related, right? So, what tends to happen, is a company will pull me in for help with some aspect of communication. And then as we get going, because in my world and the way I see it, all communication is symptomatic when we show up in communication, how we're showing up in communication is symptomatic of all those things going on inside of us, the beliefs we hold, those fundamental things that live inside of us. So, if we're really going to transform and evolve your ability to communicate, collaborate, and grow together. Well, we're naturally gonna dip into that stuff. And so, it's kind of my, dare I say, sneaky way to really help people transform. It's really the entry layer. So of course we're gonna address that communication layer, but for you to really get it, we gotta go a little deeper. But because I am bringing a ton of science around it, people are fascinated and it's quite compelling. And so, I am...

Rick Barron (22:27)

Wow.

Amy Wong (22:48)

I have, you know, by weaving in the science and by weaving in the principles and the psychology, I mean, I make a very compelling case and then, and then folks get super excited about it and then they're naturally very, very invested in continuing to do the work because they get, oh, this is just an effect. Communication is an effect of this deeper stuff. Got it.

Rick Barron (23:03)

Wow.

Rick Barron (23:12)

Now, I read somewhere, and hope I didn't misread this, you kind of take what you learn from your math and weave it into what you do today. Can you explain that for the audience? Yeah.

Amy Wong (23:24)

Totally. So, yeah, so I majored in pure math at Cal, UC Berkeley. That was not easy. That was not easy. I mean, let me be clear. I absolutely loved it, but I spent my best friend and I, she was also a math major. We, I mean, all we did was study. And it's so funny because we'd see folks out on the lawn or on Sprapazza party. 

I'm like, get all this time? Oh my gosh. But I'll tell you that those years and that training was so, it was so rigorous and it was so intense. But what it did was it completely molded and shaped how I perceive information, how I'm able to grok large amounts of data.

Rick Barron (24:07)

Mm-hmm.

Amy Wong (24:23)

And it doesn't matter what the variable is, right? It doesn't matter what the, you know, if it's language or if it's numbers or if it's symbols, but to grok large amounts of data and then make sense of it, right? By just using pure logic and essentially trying to find patterns and meaning. And then in a very, in the most succinct way, try to distill it in, okay, well, here's what we're talking about. And so, in short form, I mean, I have to say I'm extremely masterful at logic when it comes to logic.

Rick Barron (24:46)

Right.

Amy Wong (24:53)

And in college, I was using numbers and symbols as the medium to understand truth in the universe, right? Cause that's essentially what math is. But what happened was, that was amazing and I loved it, absolutely. But then after I left, now I'm in business, all of a sudden that ability now just became translated and now I'm using words in language.

Rick Barron (25:01)

Mm-hmm.

Amy Wong (25:18)

And I'm working with humans and just kind of, and it's definitely more subjective, but the essence of trying to distill information and explain it in an irrefutable way was the same. And so that, so in terms, so I'm not solving theorems and I'm not, you know, breaking down proofs with numbers, but I'm definitely, I feel like I'm doing that every day in conversation with leaders and with humans, trying to make sense of all of that stuff that they bring to the conversation.

Rick Barron (25:50)

Wow. That's an interesting how you weave all that into what you do and how it just comes out. So, oh, now I get it. That's so cool. So, let's dive into your book. I mean, if I heard correctly, you were at this or you start, I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. You were at this for like 10 years to get this book pulled together from beginning to end. 

And quite an accomplishment that you did. I mean, and the name of your book is Living on Purpose for the audience. And for those who haven't purchased the book, please do. It's a great read. But what motivated you to write this book to begin with? I mean, what was the process? How did this all unfold?

Amy Wong (26:37)

Yeah. So, it was around 2014 that I knew I had something because what I was doing with my clients at the time, it was working. And it was, I mean, it was tear-jerkingly amazing and miraculous and beautiful. And I was just, I felt again, I was living a miracle every day. And there was a part of me like, wow, you know, I've really got something here that's really helping people.

Rick Barron (26:43)

Mm-hmm.

Amy Wong (27:06)

And it didn't even occur to me that I could translate it into a book until I started getting a lot of questions from my clients. Is there a book that you could recommend on what we're doing here? Like, is there something I can read to study in between our sessions? And I thought, no, that doesn't exist, huh? And so even still then it wasn't like, oh, well, I need to be the one that goes and writes that book. And it wasn't until like a year or two later, like Amy, can you write that book? And I'm like,

Rick Barron (27:13)

Mm-hmm.

Amy Wong (27:36)

But I didn't take it seriously until it was around 2016. Now I've got this long waiting list and I just wanna help as many people as possible. That it was like, okay, I know exactly what this book needs to be and I kinda need to read it because I can't help everybody. And for the folks that I can't work with personally, I wanna be able to help them. So, I need to write this book. I need to write this book for all the people out there that I can't personally touch because this helps and this will free them.

Rick Barron (27:39)

Right.

Amy Wong (28:06)

And so, it just felt awful to be like, well, if you can't work with me personally, then you're not gonna get the juice of this. And that just felt really awful. And so, then I had that hunger and that fire inside of me to like, I've got to do something about this. And then it was, you know, Amy, I really think you need to write a book on this. Like, and so it was around that time, okay, I know what this book absolutely needs to be, absolutely needs to be.

Rick Barron (28:12)

Mm-hmm.

Amy Wong (28:35)

But I, because I only operate off inspiration deep down, I knew, okay, well, it's not time. It's not time. And it was around this time that I learned something. So, at that point, I'm also in certification for a field called conversational intelligence, right? So CIQ sits in between IQ and EQ. And it's, it's how intelligent are we and our ability to communicate, to create and sustain trust so that we can, that we can all thrive together. It's I love it. 
 So, I'm in the midst of certification for this. I'm deep in it. And I learned something about the brain that just knocked me off my chair. I mean, I remember it was such an amazing, it was a eureka moment. And I mean, it was almost as if like the clouds parted and I got hit with, it was amazing. But what I learned was something so fundamental about the brain and our neurobiology and human, just our human predicament.

Rick Barron (29:30)

Mm-hmm.

Amy Wong (29:30)

And it was the missing piece I needed that put, and I didn't even know that was a missing piece, but it was the missing piece I needed in order to bring everything that I was doing together. And the moment I learned that, I honestly felt like I won the lottery. And I was like, oh my gosh. And even then, at that point, I also knew I still wasn't time to write a book, but I knew now I've got everything I need. And it was like, and yeah, I think deep down, Rick, it wasn't...

Rick Barron (29:35)

Ah...

Amy Wong (30:00)

It was, it was, there was a part of me that knew, Amy, you're still getting case studies. You're still getting amazing examples. You're still deep in research. You're still, you know, exploring. Like there's more, there's more to be learned. There's more to be learned. There's more to be experienced. There's more to be filled out. And it wasn't until 2019, I'm not kidding. It was as if like all of a sudden, you know, the pot that's been kind of rolled by just completely turned into that Royal, like that rolling boil was like, it's time. I got to do this.

Rick Barron (30:06)

Yeah.

Rick Barron (30:28)

I gotta do this. Yeah.

Amy Wong (30:30)

I've got to do this. And so that was the middle of 2019. And then the synchronicities on how it just came to be is miraculous, but that's when I knew, I'm like, I have everything I need and it needs to come out in the world right now because the world needs it.

Rick Barron (30:46)

Sure. Wow. It's amazing how you went through that process and the, I'm gonna do it. No, I can't do it yet. No, I'm waiting. And all of a sudden something else comes in and I've been there. So, I know exactly what you're talking about. So, the book title, how did you come up with that?

Amy Wong (31:03)

Yeah. Okay. You really want to know the real truth? I didn't want that title. The publisher made me change it. I was dead set on naming it my practice, which is always on purpose. I love that. And I was completely convinced it was going to be always on purpose. Five deliberate choices to realize meaning and joy. And the publisher was like,

Rick Barron (31:06)

Sure. Oh, really? I didn't know that. Oh, no.

Amy Wong (31:31)

It's okay, but it's a little obscure and we think we could probably come up with a better title that's going to make it more clear about what it is. And I'm like, oh, all right. And so, they came back with all these suggestions and it was the best of all of them that made the most sense. And you know what? I'm mad at myself. I'm so mad at myself because I just blindly was like, okay. Well, first off, I polled everyone I knew. 

Rick Barron (31:59)

Right.

Amy Wong (32:00)

And I'm like, all right. friends, far and wide, clients, like out of these titles, what do you think it is? And there was a mix, like it wasn't, it wasn't a clear-cut answer. And so, I had to go with my gut and I went with this. And you know what I'm mad about? I did not, I mean, this is so, so dumb. How did I not go into a query to see how many books have this title? 

Like I just assumed that the publisher would have done that. Right!? And would they have like, okay, well, this one's tapped out, so let's give her something else. They didn't do that. And so, we said, yes, we run with it. And it's not until months later that I, I'm so dumb. Then I look and I'm like, oh my God, there are so many books called living on purpose. 

Rick Barron (32:42)

There are so many books on the internet. Yeah.

Amy Wong (32:55)

And I immediately email my publisher and she came back, she's like, well, you know, actually you're okay because we looked and it's all in a religious and spiritual category. Your book isn't in a spiritual category. I'm like, it doesn't matter.

Rick Barron (33:00)

Like they were missing the point uh yeah

Amy Wong (33:04)

Like, oh, well, I'm just going to trust that this is on purpose. And all of them, like, and I'm just going to drop the resistance to it and just love what it is. All right, fine. So, oh my god.

Rick Barron (33:11)

So, I read in your book something along the lines of, and I'm going to quote here, lots of individuals perceive life as mere survival rather than flourishing. And yet there's hope by making deliberate choices, one can pave the way to a happier existence. I mean, I marked that up immediately and I thought, wow. But from your perspective, can you expand on that for the audience and what you meant when you wrote that?

Amy Wong (33:41)

Absolutely. So, something I see a lot, particularly, because I mean, I've had thousands of conversations at this point from people from all walks of life. And there's a very fundamental theme that I have witnessed. And it doesn't matter if you're a high school student, a college graduate, a recovering addict, a CEO, a celebrity, it doesn't matter. What I have found is that there is this trend where- we will want to look out to the world and we will want to blame everything we experience, the feelings, the anger, the sadness, the depression, the joy, every experience that we are personally having on the stuff outside of us, the conditions around us. And we can get really good at looking around us and saying, well, you're the reason I'm unhappy. This is the reason I'm held back.

Rick Barron (33:49)

Right.

Amy Wong (34:40)

This is the reason that I don't feel good. And we want to put, we tend to put our power out there and blame the world. Now, when that happens, you become powerless because there is no amount of moving the pieces around to find inner peace, because you just cannot change the world enough to accommodate your needs to find joy and peace and inner calm and meaning.

 Rick Barron (34:59)

Right.

Amy Wong (35:08)

And because we fall into this trap, we become very reactive to the stuff around us. And because we're now placing our awareness on the stuff outside of us, what happens is we start to lose that inner awareness and mindfulness and self-awareness. And so, what all of a sudden, we're kind of in this survival mode because it's, okay, well, I need this and I need to move this and I got to do this and I got to... And it's an incredibly reactive way to live. 

And there's no peace in that because there's no agency, there's no power, there's no responsibility. And so that's what I mean by mere survival. And it's a habit that many of us fall into because of how we're conditioned, honestly. But when I say we can free ourselves from that and find deep peace and meaning and joy, when I say make deliberate choices, the choice I'm referring to, the kind of choice that I'm referring to is not choice at the level of action, right? 

So, what do I mean? So, I'm not saying, hey, your joy and freedom and your thriving gives in a come from you choosing a salad over a burrito today, Rick, there you go. So, there's your, you know, so that's the kind of deliberate choice you need to make. I mean, it might help you, but that's not gonna move the needle at all, right? 

And so, it's not choice at the level of action. It's choice at the level of perception. What am I choosing to perceive? What am I choosing to interpret? What am I choosing to believe about myself? How am I choosing to narrate this?

Rick Barron (36:27)

Got it.

Amy Wong (36:35)

And when we can understand how that works and then exercise the tools to choose skillfully and wisely, we unlock ourselves from that bad habit and just naturally start to thrive.

Rick Barron (36:47)

Wow, that's beautiful. I noticed in your book; you insert passages from spiritual leaders. One was, I hope I say this correctly, Damdots? Ramdots, thank you. And yeah, there were so many of them. And I guess my question was, did you stage them in a particular part of the book, or was it something else?

Amy Wong (37:01)

Ramdas, yeah. Ramdas, yeah, yeah. And Adyashanti and yeah.

Amy Wong (37:18)

Yeah. No, I'm glad that it was inspiring to you. It was completely, it was because I was inspired. So, I am quite spiritual in that. And meaning like, I really believe there's something, there's just more than our five senses can pick up on. And I believe we're connected beyond these, you know, we're all connected. And so, when I say I'm spiritual, I just, I believe that there's more going on.

Rick Barron (37:28)

Okay.

Amy Wong (37:48)

And I just leave it at that, right? So, I'm not religious. I don't subscribe to any sort of religious doctrine, but I do believe that there's just something bigger here, right? And call it universe, call it source, call it God. I don't know, but it's this idea that, you know, that we can find genuine meaning when we recognize that we're all connected, even though it doesn't seem like we are. Even though we've got these, you know, separate bodies, we're actually not separate. And so that started really young for me. I was fascinated by just consciousness, consciousness studies, the power of the mind, the mind-body connection. And so, starting at a young age, I was reading Wayne Dyer and Deepak Chopra. I remember reading Wayne Dyer in fifth grade. I also found Thich Nhat Hanh. Fifth grade, yeah. And Thich Nhat Hanh, a Buddhist monk who's just a beautiful, beautiful human, started meditating in elementary school. So, it's always been very present for me. And it's interesting, and I can see why I studied math because math is an objective search for truth and a way to discern truth and speak about truth of the universe. And so, where I was really excited, I'm like, oh, I can understand a lot of the math here when we get to quantum physics where we're talking about.

Rick Barron (38:42)

The fifth grade. Oh my gosh.

Amy Wong (39:14)

Like, oh, this intersection between science and spirituality. Like, there's this so fascinating, right? And so, so that's always been a bit, that's always kind of run in the background for me. Yeah.

Rick Barron (39:25)

Wow, no, I like that. What would be some of the, in the book that you wrote, I mean, there's so much to cover there, but is there one particular section that you feel, wow, this, I'm glad I had the opportunity and the time to fit this into the book.

Amy Wong (39:49)

Yeah. Well, gosh, each choice is so rich on its own. And by the way, it was very organic how it came to be as I was writing the book. That wasn't the original plan, by the way. It kind of emerged as I was writing it, which was interesting. But I have to say, there's one particular chapter that I'm so jazzed about.

Rick Barron (40:02)

Right.

Amy Wong (40:14)

I love, I freaking love the title too. I was tickled with myself when I came up with the title. I was so proud of myself. It's, and, and hands down, and I've read, and people, I've read the reviews on Amazon and people will come back and say, oh my gosh, that chapter was totally, I mean, the price of the book, that, that chapter was worth the price of the book. I got so much out of that chapter. And, um, it's chapter four. It's chapter four. And the title of chapter four is, I Should You Not.

Rick Barron (40:34)

Right.

Rick Barron (40:43)

Yeah.

Amy Wong (40:44)

And, you know, it's interesting. I, where I get really excited is I think because of my powers of logic and things that I've studied and things that I've practiced and all the conversations I've had, I've been able to discern why should is the worst word in the English language. And what's interesting is that, you know, we, I, I find, you know, you listen to a lot of self-help gurus and amazing, you know, very well-known coaches out in the world.

Rick Barron (41:05)

Right.

Amy Wong (41:13)

people that do this kind of work, there's this general understanding that, yeah, don't use the word should, don't show it on yourself, it's not great. But nobody tells you why. When we get like, oh, it doesn't feel that great if I showed on myself, but without a why, there's no real reason to stop. 

And so, then I got excited because then my math brain broke it all down and I'm like, okay, let me just prove to you all why this is an awful word and why it's actually holding you back more than you think it is and how it's working against you. 

And so that in the way I presented, apparently people really love it because it's changed their life. I get so often from folks, that chapter changed my life. I am a totally different person now when it comes to this and this and this and this. Like you released me and I'm like, oh yay.

Rick Barron (41:51)

Mm hmm. Oh yeah. Yeah. And truth be told, not because you said if that is my favorite chapter and I have so many Post-it notes in that chapter. No, because as I was reading, I thought, oh my God, you know, I used to do that and I don't do that anymore. You know what?

Amy Wong (42:11)

Oh, it is your favorite chapter two? Ha ha ha.

Amy Wong (42:20)

awesome.

Rick Barron (42:22)

It's just, you know, when I wanted to start, you know, my podcast, I just, I'm going to do this because I want to do it. I love it. And everything that I do with my research, like you, I feel like it's got to be something else out there. That's going to make this story more compelling. And I'll just keep looking until I find it. But it is again, it's the book was just so good that I told you that I even went up and got the audio version.

Amy Wong (42:50)

Thank you.

Rick Barron (42:50)

And the audio version to me, even though, yeah, I read the book, main notes, but hearing the inflection of your voice on certain words and terms, I thought, oh, I'm now taking a whole different perspective now from how that reads. So, I'll leave it up to the audience. Get one or get both, but I'm getting you're guaranteed to love them both. Uh, Real quick on, I noticed on your website and I think rightly so you have in big letters, you are meant to thrive. How did you come up with that slogan?

Amy Wong (43:25)

Because I say it all the time. And it's just, it's one of those things where it's such a truth in me, I don't even need to say it. And I know in my heart, like that is our birthright to thrive, to flourish. And the only, and I'll get pushed back on this, but the only thing that gets in our way of thriving is ourselves. It's ourselves and a hundred percent it's ourselves. And when I say we are meant to thrive, like...

Rick Barron (43:44)

Yeah, where are the limitations?

Amy Wong (43:51)

You have to decide that's something I want for myself. And you know what? I'm gonna do the work to get out of my own way so I can do it. And so, you know, everything that I do really is built upon this truth that we are meant to thrive. And that is what life is all about. Is tapping into that ability. And because then, I mean, why else be here on earth? Right?

Rick Barron (43:57)

Absolutely.

Rick Barron (44:14)

So, in the time that you've been doing this, I think you said 14 years plus, what is maybe a big lesson that you've learned about yourself? And at what point did you feel like, my gosh, I'm doing this, I'm on my way. I can make this happen.

Amy Wong (44:35)

Oh boy. You know, early on, I mean, as soon as I plugged into it, this is just the nature of this work. I knew I; this is why I've made every decision I've ever made in my life to lead me to this point. Everything about my life now makes sense. I am truly in my calling.

Rick Barron (44:48)

Right.

Amy Wong (44:54)

I'm truly here on earth to do this work, to raise consciousness in this way. I discerned that pretty early on, I would say in the first years of coaching. And I think because I just knew that was true, I think it allowed me to just continue on so boldly, so courageously. So like, I had no, there was no fear. 

And I think the reason that I moved forward with no fear was because this wasn't about me. This wasn't about my business. This wasn't about my success. This wasn't about my business plan. In fact, I've never had a business plan. I never had a business plan. Sorry, I just don't operate that way. 

Yeah, I'm like, you know what? I just serve. Let me just go and do this work to help others. And so that's something I learned about myself, that this is my true purpose in life.

Amy Wong (45:52)

You know, I've... What was the other question? Was it...

Rick Barron (45:57)

Oh, what was the biggest lesson or when did you feel that, my gosh, I'm doing this and I know I can keep going forward.

Amy Wong (46:07)

Oh, you know, so this has been crystallizing for me over the past six months. And it's been incredibly emphatic and very, very real for me. But what the biggest lesson that I've learned here is what real success is and how success is created. And again, it's fascinating. 

Rick Barron (46:27)

Right.

Amy Wong (46:36)

Because what I have learned is that when I stay so true to what I'm inspired by and what feels expansive and what feels right, what feels right, not what sounds right, what feels right, what feels life-giving, not what sounds like the right idea or sounds like the brilliant idea. When I follow what feels right and I trust that, and I am so in the mindset of why I do this, which is for sure, I serve, I'm serving others, I'm serving humanity, I'm helping make this world a better place by virtue of helping elevate others Awareness and tap into their own brilliance and come back home to themselves When I stay focused to that and I follow what feels Amazing the it's gonna sound like magic. It's not magic. But let me tell you Rick the abundance the synchronicities the flow the prosperity is just delicious and amazing and delightful and wild at times

Rick Barron (47:34)

Yeah

Amy Wong (47:35)

And when I stray from that truth, because all my well-meaning mentors and people in my world and networks saying, Amy, you really need to do this and you need this kind of plan and you need this sort of PR for your book. And when I stray and do what I quote unquote should, it squeezes up and it just becomes so effortful and I get so little to no return for the effort I put forth. And...

Rick Barron (47:56)

Yeah.

Amy Wong (48:04)

And I've been on this path now to really test this out, to know the truth in this so emphatically strongly that I have to say has been such a gift because I so prefer to live this way than by some formula or playbook because that's how it's supposed to be done.

Rick Barron (48:18)

Wow. Good for you.

Rick Barron (48:27)

So, you've come across, I'm sure a lot of people in the years that you've been doing this work and you know, your past, your past life here. But I got to go to two important people I think really made a difference. And that's your parents. What did they instill in you to get into your journey, what you wanted to do, excuse me, and where you are today, what would that be?

Amy Wong (49:00)

Yeah. Oh, I'm so excited to answer this. And I have to say, there's also one other person that has been instrumental to this journey and that's my husband. So, I'm going to want to talk about that too. Yeah. But my parents, so I super credit my mom for being, she's so, I got my spiritual passion from her and my mom, my mom and my grandma were metaphysical and we'd all get together and we'd talk about how mind is causative and thinking is causative and...

Rick Barron (49:07)

Ah, absolutely.

Amy Wong (49:30)

So that got me going. And so that really opened me up to a trust in, to feeling a trust in the world in which I live and this possibility that I can create my own reality. So that was always humming in the background and I really credit my mom for that. But what's so amazing is I'm so close with my parents and they've been such guides for me. I mean, they're incredibly honest, they're vulnerable.

Rick Barron (49:39)

Right.

Amy Wong (49:56)

They're real. I mean, they have shared every story that they've ever had about themselves and their past very vulnerably so that I can learn from them. And they've always, even as a little kid, they'd pull me into the big conversations about what was going on in life. So, I always felt respected. I always felt like I was treated like an adult in that they respected my opinion. 

But starting really early, they trusted my judgment. And I think because as I was growing up, as I was developing, they would always let me make my own decisions and they trusted me for it. And they said, you know, you're going to do what you need to do and we trust you for that. 

And there's no right or wrong. And I, you know, I remember back in the day, I, you know, they'd leave me to make some big decisions and I made some decisions I regret, but I needed to make those decisions and they never judged me for it. So, for example, you know, my dad's best friend, he's also a fellow drummer. His name is David Gray.

Rick Barron (50:34)

Right.

Amy Wong (50:54)

And he was like an uncle to me. I mean, he taught me those really, you know, crude songs when you're a click, you know, the great big gobs of Greasy Grammy gopher guts, you know, you're singing like, so I learned this stuff when I was a kid and he was like an uncle. He developed cancer and I'm in high school. 

And, you know, and it's just at that phase in high school, I'm a freshman, I am so awkward, I feel so insecure and like the most popular girl in class invites me to come over for the weekend because it's the big homecoming game. 

Cause I went to an all-girls high school and you know, the boy’s high school is playing and she knew a lot of the boys and she wanted me to come spend the night. And I'm like, oh my God, I felt like the one, the lottery. And it happened to be the same weekend that it was this big barbecue in Tahoe before Dave had his surgery. And it was this big gathering of all the friends and family. And I was left with this dilemma. Like, do I?

Rick Barron (51:40)

Mm-hmm.

Amy Wong (51:52)

Do I go do this thing or do I go do this other thing? And you know, my parents were amazing about it because I was crying and I'm like, I wanna do both. And they're like, well, you can't. And I'm like, I know. And they're like, well, honey, we trust whatever decision you make, whatever decision you make. And so sadly I made the decision to go off with my friend.

Rick Barron (52:11)

Wow.

Amy Wong (52:16)

A friend who wasn't even really a friend. She was awful actually, it turned out. She was not a kind person through high school. And then Dave passed shortly after that and was like, wow, I really regret that. But the bigger lesson here was that I got to learn from it and my parents gave me that freedom to trust myself. 

And so, I really credit them for giving me that capability to trust my own judgment, trust my own instincts, because that, when we can do that for ourselves, that's when we thrive. And so many folks haven't been able to practice that. And so, I think if there's anything that, I mean, they've done so much, but that fundamentally, that's one of the things that I really trust, or I just, I thank them for. Yeah, yeah. And then the other person, I'll tell you, so my husband,

Rick Barron (53:07)

Good. OK.

Amy Wong (53:12)

My husband is a force of nature. There is nothing this man cannot do. I joke, except swim. He doesn't swim. That's the only thing he doesn't know how to do. But that's okay. He was born and raised in the hate in San Francisco. So, I don't expect him to have to swim. But he, you know what, I just, I so, I so, he's an entrepreneur through and through and he's so brilliant at everything he does. And I remember when I was working at Sun, we got married and.

Rick Barron (53:23)

Okay.

Amy Wong (53:42)

We'd have conversations. He's like, Amy, I think you're meant to be an entrepreneur. And I'm like, oh my God, no, that sounds awful. Just give me a steady paycheck. I want a 401k. That just no thank you. And he's like, I don't know. I think it's in you. And I'm like, oh, that just threw up in my mouth. No, thank you. And sure enough, like...

Rick Barron (53:49)

Hahaha

Amy Wong (54:03)

As I started to wake up to who I really was and what I'm meant to do, he has been so supportive every step of the way, unconditionally supportive, just totally believes in me, does, bends over backwards to help make me successful and to help me be the force I am in the world. And I'm certain that I would not be doing what I'm doing if it wasn't for his partnership and friendship and support. So.

Rick Barron (54:09)

That's great.

Rick Barron (54:24)

Mm hmm. Well, that's great. I mean, not to many people can say that, you know, and that's great. So, what's next for you in your career? I mean, is it another book? Is it Broadway? I don't know.

Amy Wong (54:30)

Oh, I know. I know.

Amy Wong (54:41)

Oh, I wish I could sing. Oh my gosh. You know, my poor vocal cords are so shot after all the years of facilitating. And like, yeah, my sister's like, God, you sound like you're like a cat dying sometimes when I'm talking to you. I'm like, I know it sounds awful. Um, no, not Broadway. But you know, it's, I definitely have another book in me, but I know it's definitely not time to take it serious because I'm still working to get this book out in the world.

Rick Barron (54:49)

Yeah.

Amy Wong (55:09)

It's so meant to be out in the world and there's so much opportunity and I want to focus on that. I'm also just really focused on just doing the work I'm doing at the moment and helping the people I do and focusing on those that have a tremendous influence on others. So, it's got that trickle down. I mean, I think a podcast is in my future, but there's not a big... It's not at the moment right

Rick Barron (55:26)

Right.

Amy Wong (55:41)

I don't know, I just keep reaching for what's most uncomfortably exciting and it keeps growing and it keeps expanding and I know it will continue to do so. So, I don't know, I'll get back to you. So, something along those lines that I like focused on getting this, just helping people in the way that I can.

Rick Barron (55:52)

Okay. That's fair enough.

Sure. So, listen, we've covered a lot of ground today and this has been a really interesting conversation. I'm glad we were able to cover various facets of your life and what you have accomplished. And I mean, pat yourself on the back. You've done a lot. 

What closing thought would you want to leave the audience with what we talked about? It could be about your book. It could be something philosophical. I don't know. What would you want to leave them with?

Amy Wong (56:14)

Thanks.

Amy Wong (56:27)

Well, you know, I think the common denominator that runs through every single person that's ever come across through my practice or my conversations is the common denominator is that we all want to feel good. And we might not say it this way, but we want to be free, free from our own self and both suffering. And so, the thought I'd love to leave is that.

You know, how we feel and our suffering, our thriving is not due to the world around us. Happiness is not found in the stuff and in the status. It's achieved by getting in the driver's seat of your own life and harnessing your own perception and making choices at the level of perception and interpretation. 

Rick Barron (57:03)

Right.

Rick Barron (57:11)

Oh, I like that.

Amy Wong (57:23)

And what's so awesome about this is that it makes joy so easy. It makes freedom so, because it's so possible, because it's only up to you. So that's the good news. It's totally and only up to you. But that's the bad news because now you can't blame anybody. So, it's totally on you. Yay. It's totally on you. But I don't know. To me, that is the most freeing news that I could ever just reflect on and offer anyone is that it's

Rick Barron (57:29)

It's totally and wholly up to you. It's totally on you. Yeah. It's totally on you.

Amy Wong (57:52)

Totally and completely up to you. And that's awesome. And it's not hard. Yeah.

Rick Barron (57:54)

Right. That's great. Well, Amy, I wanna thank you from the bottom of my heart to having you be on the show because you've, you just light up a room. I gotta say it. Okay, so for my audience, for further information regarding this interview, please visit my website, which you can find on Apple Podcasts. And as always, I thank you for the privilege of you listening and your interest. So be sure to subscribe here or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss an episode. We'll see you soon.

Amy Wong (58:08)

Well, thanks, I appreciate it.