Interview #5: Rebecca Gruenspan - Adoption: A Celebration of Life

Rebecca outlines the steps involved in the adoption process, including getting a home study, creating an adoption profile, and signing up with agencies or attorneys. She also addresses misconceptions about open adoption, such as birth parents changing their minds or co-parenting. Rebecca emphasizes the importance of open-mindedness and education throughout the adoption journey. 

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Rebecca Greenspan and the Adoption Process

05:23 The Adoption Process: Home Study, Adoption Profile, and Agency Sign-Up

14:07 Understanding Open Adoption: Access to Birth Family Information

23:27 The Importance of Open-Mindedness and Education in Adoption

28:33 Introduction to Open Adoption

32:16 International Adoption and Adoption Challenges

34:37 Building a Supportive Community

38:38 Exploring the Adoption Process

41:25 In-Person Adoption Communities

43:43 The Waiting Game and Resilience

46:00 Trends in Adoption

49:53 The Adoption Roadmap Book

53:25 The Importance of Marketing in Adoption

Full Transcript

Rick Barron (introduction)

Hi everyone. Today I am very excited to welcome Rebecca Greenspan to my podcast show. For many hopefuls, expected parents, the path to adoption is filled with emotions, sleepless nights, financial hurdles, and not to mention the moments of doubt. Yet their determination remains steadfast. So where does one begin? I mean, one doesn't know what they don't know.

The adoption process itself can be very overwhelming with complicated legalities and the waiting adding to the challenge. Now it's during this unnerving journey that Rebecca and her team shine. By providing invaluable guidance and empathy, Rebecca supports expected parents every step of the way, ensuring they navigate the process with confidence until they finally welcome a new addition into their loving home.

Now with 11 years of experience, Rebecca has a lot of information to share. Now there are many routes to adopting a child, which I didn't know. One of those is what's called open adoption. And that's the topic Rebecca will walk us through today during our discussion. Rebecca, welcome to the show.

Rebecca Gruenspan (01:27.79)

Thanks so much for having me.

Rick Barron (01:29.934)

I've been looking forward to this. It's taken a while and I apologize for that, but now we're here and I'm just so glad.
 
 So if you could, could you kind of give us, or the audience itself, if you will, kind of a broad overview of your background and how you navigated your way into this line of business of being an adoption consultant.

Rebecca Gruenspan (01:39.022)

That's all that matters.

Rebecca Gruenspan (01:58.062)

Well, I went to school for social work. I have my undergraduate and my graduate degree in social work. I worked for many years in the nonprofit industry and I worked specifically with women who were high -powered women, many of whom had either their own business or were the leaders of large corporations. And I say that because...

In working so closely with them on different boards and committees and being the leader, I got to know them very well. And I was always very inspired by how they led and what they started and their drive. Because I too have always had such a drive and had an entrepreneurial spirit that I always dreamed about.

Having my own business or being the head of a business. But I never quite knew what that would be. And so, I spent about 22 years or something like that in the nonprofit industry as a fundraiser and then kind of got sick of it. Just burned out of that. I had had many ideas about businesses over the years, but none of them really stuck.

And then I adopted my son. And we'll talk about all of that later, but I adopted my son. And after that experience, I became kind of a magnet to people who were also looking to build their family and thinking about adoption. I used an adoption consultant, which we will talk about. And two years after I adopted,

I decided that's what I want to do. Because for two full years, I was guiding people through that process and already consulting them how to do that. And after realizing that I'm not sick of this conversation, I can keep talking about it because it could have burned me out, but it didn't. It only lit a fire. And I thought, ding, this, this is what I want to do.

Rick Barron (04:24.014)

Wow, that's great. I think coupled with having that entrepreneurial spirit, knowing that you are working with individuals who want to be able to adopt a child and going through that process and not knowing what direction to go to begin with and to see that, hey, Rebecca is there and she can help provide that guidance. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who may not know of you, but hopefully through this…

Rebecca Gruenspan (04:24.27)

And I did it.

Rebecca Gruenspan (04:42.83)

Mm -hmm.

Rick Barron (04:54.19)

…podcast, they're going to start finding out what you bring to the party, so to speak. So, from adopting a child, can you kind of give a broad overview of what, how the process works itself? I mean, I know there's many intangibles, but for someone that you are talking to for the very first time, how do you kind of lay out the ground, so to speak, that here's what it's going to take to go through from point A to point B to complete this process and hopefully have a happy ending.

Rebecca Gruenspan (05:29.07)

Sure, well, I've deemed our process the adoption roadmap process or the adoption roadmap model, which kind of lays it all out for you, which is why I mention it. The first step is really understanding what you're about to embark on, right? You need to have at least the groundwork laid out and understand that before you start so that you're not really surprised too much as you walk through it. So, once you kind of understand the process, then the first real step, and it's a legal step, is getting your home study. And so, the home study process is what legally approves you to be able to adopt a baby, and that includes looking at your finances.

Interviewing you to make sure you've really thought through what you might look like as a parent and what that means to you and what your life was like growing up in your family and who are the people that support you and financially. What are all of your financials? financials, background checks, interviews. It's, you know, some people think it's really intrusive and they come to your house.

And I say to them, think about what you are doing and what the, you know, the state is doing. They are, they are putting a child into your home. It has to be somewhat intrusive to make sure you are a good person and that you will actually love this child and take care of this child and raise this child as you say you will. So there has to be a lot of work that goes into it.

So, then you get legally cleared to adopt and then it starts, then the real stuff starts. So, you have to put together a storybook of your life or what's called an adoption profile. And this profile is a window into your life. An expectant mom, a woman who is pregnant and thinking about placing her child for adoption.

Rick Barron (07:25.902)

in the real world.

Rebecca Gruenspan (07:47.982)

is the one who typically chooses who she wants to parent her child. And the only way she can choose is by looking at these adoption profiles or these storybooks. So, there is a way to kind of put that together. Then the third step is signing up with the entities that are going to help facilitate this adoption for you.

You know, how are you going to find these expectant moms and who's going to help you through all of those steps? Well, that's when you sign up with an agency or attorney or what I think is a better strategy is to sign up with multiple agencies or attorneys around the country. Now, a lot of people think they have to only sign up in their own state and they can actually sign up

Anywhere the home study has to be done in your state The adoption does not have to So signing up with agencies across the country or at least one is the next step and then finally you have the Finalization of the adoption you've got you've adopted your baby. You have your baby at home with you

And that same home study agency that made sure you cleared legally to be able to adopt, they're still in your lives because now they want to see, okay, now that you've brought your baby home, are you still those same people that you said you were and that we cleared? And is the baby thriving with you or are there any major red flags? So, what typically happens when you bring that baby home is legally, they're still under the, the,

What's the word I'm looking for?

Rick Barron (09:48.846)

It's okay, don't worry. Take your time.

Rebecca Gruenspan (09:50.734)

Anyways, they're not your baby legally yet. They are of the agency or the attorney who did that placement. So, to legally make the child yours, you have to go through a finalization process. So that home study agency comes back to your house, has a couple of visits, it gets turned into the courts, and that's when it becomes legal. Usually that's about six months after the adoption happens.

Rick Barron (10:21.838)

So, with everything you just defined, that's a lot of homework. Have you ever had it where people just say, I kind of thought it was going to take some hurdles per se, but I wasn't expecting this. Or do you have people say, you know what, thank you for opening my eyes as to what I need to do to be successful. What have you encountered over the -

the many years you've been doing this because you've been at this for 11 years so I can imagine you have a lot of stories to tell but I think for some people this is probably a very wide eye -opener to like wow I want to do this but I wasn't expecting all this.

Rebecca Gruenspan (11:04.59)

Yeah, we've had very few people who have actually started the process who realize, this isn't for us. We thought it was going to be something different. And I, I pride myself in that because that means we're doing the right things upfront before even bringing them in to work with them. I had to think long and hard about, you know, do I, you know, I told you about the adoption roadmap model that we use and for many years.

I would go over that model with people on the phone when they called and over and over and over again each day. And I decided, you know what, I'm going to make this video and put it out on our website for people to see. And we asked that people watch it before they even have a call. And hopefully that's weeding out the people that maybe it's not, it's not right for them. And it's not right for everyone. It's not for the faint of heart. That's for sure.

There are definitely some obstacles and ups and downs financially and emotionally and it's not for everyone.

Rick Barron (12:08.91)

Yeah, you mentioned your website and for the audience out there, as I was doing my research, I had the opportunity to look at Rebecca's website with so much information that one has to go through. And then back in the day, I used to design websites. So, when I saw her website, the layout is very simple. It has a very warm.

Rebecca Gruenspan (12:30.222)

Mmm.

Rick Barron (12:38.542)

feeling to it and the navigation to find the information and a lot of things that Rebecca is talking about right now you can find there and I discovered that you don't really have to worry about well how do I get here the information is laid out so well that it's not it doesn't over well me if you will so I would encourage you after this podcast to go over to

Her website, which is RG adoption consulting, all one word .com. And I'll have the information in my show notes, but by all means, please take a look at that. It's, it's, it's well laid out and, and the information is just amazing. And you, no, no, I mean, you've done your homework over 11 years of this. I think I can see how that website has been evolving and I'm sure it still is today.

Rebecca Gruenspan (13:23.726)

Thank you so much.

Rick Barron (13:37.614)

So, as I looked at the various world of adoption, I was again at the very beginning where I did the introduction. I came across that there are various options, if you will, for adoption. And I'm sure I didn't cover all of them, but I came across like agency adoption, closed adoption, independent adoption. But the one that caught my eye was open adoption. What does that mean? How does that differ from the traditional types of adoptions, if you will?

Rebecca Gruenspan (14:12.59)

Technically, open adoption means having access to information versus not, versus not knowing anything about the birth family, the biological family, not knowing even names.

My dog is about to bark. I have to open a door for her because someone just came into my house. So, one second. She is.

Rick Barron (14:40.366)

No worries. Go ahead.

Rebecca Gruenspan (14:48.206)

Sorry about that.

Rick Barron (14:49.454)

No worries, no worries. That's what makes this conversation very human, you know?

Rebecca Gruenspan (14:54.35)

Yeah, totally. So open adoption is really having some information. And that can mean a lot of things. And recently my eyes opened a little bit differently to open adoption having spoken to an adoptee who said, a closed adoption to me is not having access to my birth certificate, not having access to any records about...

Rick Barron (15:00.494)

All right.

Rebecca Gruenspan (15:21.55)

anything having to do with my adoption as if it didn't exist. That's closed. And that is the case in many states. You do not have access to a birth certificate. Open means I do have access to a birth certificate. I do know the names of my biological parents. I do know some, you know, health backgrounds, medical background. Now, when you're talking to adoptive parents,

What they consider open is having direct contact, maybe just having communication without any identifying information shared, which some people might call semi -open adoption, or no communication at all.

Now that could go from no communication at all, all the way on the other end to visits multiple times a year.

Rick Barron (16:23.79)

Why would one want to choose open adoption versus other means of adoption? I mean, I guess I'm just trying to look at what are maybe the pros and cons of taking that route, if you will.

Rebecca Gruenspan (16:40.142)

Yeah, open adoption wasn't a thing probably 20 years ago. And if you can imagine being a person that was adopted, not knowing if there's anyone out there that looks like you, that you look like, not knowing anything about your biological family, you know, all these things that...

As human beings, you'd think it's our right to know, right? It's our birthright to know where we come from, who we look like, what are our genetics. So as, and as a result, think about what that might do to a person. What kind of identity issues they would grow up with? What kind of attachment issues?

they might grow up with? Can they keep a relationship knowing that they were quote unquote given away by the one person in the world that's supposed to love them and keep them and raise them? fantasizing as you see people down the street, is that my mom? Is that my brother? Is that my dad? Having this idea in your mind what it would be to live with them. To live in their world, right?

Rick Barron (18:08.386)

That's got to be a very sobering thought. I just can't imagine what that must feel like.

Rebecca Gruenspan (18:17.102)

Yeah, well, there was a statistic and I don't know if it's still the case today that adoptees were four times more likely to commit suicide. That's what that can lead to. It really has a huge sobering effect on a person versus from the day you were, or even by the way, finding out that you were adopted,

Rick Barron (18:26.158)

Wow.

Rebecca Gruenspan (18:46.702)

when you're much later in life, maybe through a 23 and me, right? That now as an adult, you're dealing with, my God, my whole life was just not as I thought it was. Versus being raised always knowing that you came into the world, into your family through adoption, always having face -to -face contact with.

Rick Barron (18:51.598)

Mm -hmm.

Rebecca Gruenspan (19:12.974)

the woman who was your biological mother or biological father, so knowing what they look like, being able to say I love you to each other, knowing how they live, knowing from her mouth why she wasn't able to keep you.

Rebecca Gruenspan (19:35.086)

That was a lot healthier for that child in the long run.

Rick Barron (19:41.998)

Have you ever had anyone that went through this process of being adopted and with some of the examples you describe about the emotional aspect, call you and say, look, I don't know if I can do this. It's just not working for me. Has that ever happened?

Rebecca Gruenspan (20:02.638)

You mean of, of, adoptive parents? You mean who have, okay. Well, what I can tell you, and when I talk to people for that very first conversation of somebody calling to talk to me about our services or has questions about adoption, everybody starts with a certain level of comfort, right? I've had people say, we are absolutely not open to visits. We are.

Rick Barron (20:06.798)

Yes, yeah.

Rebecca Gruenspan (20:30.03)

You know they Phoneticizing talk in very much black and white. And my answer to them is always.

Your comfort level today is okay. Everybody starts somewhere. As you go through the adoption process, you must go through with an open heart and an open mind. You must be open to continuing to learn and educate yourself. Listen, watch, read from the different parts of the adoption triad, which is the adoptee, the birth mom and the adoptive parents.

And as you do so, most likely your heart is going to soften and open up a little bit. Your mind is going to start to understand why this might be a better route than what we thought. And my bet is as you come face to face with the woman who is about to place her baby into your arms, you're probably going to melt a little bit and

Look at this woman and say, my God, I love you. Thank you for making me a mom when this is the hardest thing that you are dealing with. It becomes so human.

Rick Barron (21:53.07)

And that's, I mean, having just said that got my heart to sank yet. I guess the way you put it at that very moment, when you know, I am putting trust in to this individual or individuals to take my child and raise them as best as they can, give them a happy home. All of that. That, how do you walk away from that without just, I mean, falling apart. Geez.

Rebecca Gruenspan (22:25.102)

I don't know and I'll never know. But what I can say is that part of the understanding of open adoption, a lot of people have fear of, well, this woman, this birth mom is going to want to co-parent and make decisions. And open adoption is not co -parenting. They don't want to co-parent or else they would have parented. They want to know.

that they made the right decision for this child that they very much love and couldn't come through for them like they're quote unquote supposed to. Right? So, they want to see that this child is being loved, that they made the right decision not to co -parent.

Rick Barron (23:06.638)

Yeah, I...

Rick Barron (23:13.294)

Right. I guess, I guess there's a lot of misconceptions and myths about open adoption. What other misconceptions might there be that people should be aware of in open adoption?

Rebecca Gruenspan (23:18.542)

Mm -hmm.

Rebecca Gruenspan (23:27.822)

I think the biggest one is they're going to change their mind and show up at our doorstep and demand their baby back. as well as the co -parenting one, those are the two biggest fears. I don't even know if it's a real, like if, if, if the thought is a real thought, like whether they truly believe that that's going to happen or not. Cause everyone knows there's, there are legalities to protect from that and it doesn't happen.

Rick Barron (23:32.942)

wow.

Rebecca Gruenspan (23:56.75)

If it has, I don't know, maybe I could count on one hand for all the times of, you know, all the years of open adoption, but I have never seen it happen. Now, that doesn't mean that there haven't been contested cases by maybe a birth father coming forward and saying, I had no idea my baby was being placed and I want to have a say or I want to parent my child.

There are some cases of that. It's rare that it happens after all the legal papers are signed and hopefully all the agencies and attorneys are doing their due diligence to avoid that, but there are times that that can happen. Again, it's rare that it fully disrupts an adoption. Occasionally it does. Very rare.

Rick Barron (24:50.83)

But still that, well, the, when you think of the potential complications that could come your way, like, well, I didn't see that one coming in terms of adoption and, you know, excuse my ignorance on this. Is it just babies or could it be children who are like five or six? And how, I mean, how does that differ from a baby? I mean, because I think if a child is five or six and they go through this,

Rebecca Gruenspan (24:56.462)

Mm -hmm.

Rebecca Gruenspan (25:09.806)

Yeah, absolutely.

Rick Barron (25:20.494)

open adoption process. I just can't imagine. What they're thinking like, why are you letting me go mom or dad? Who are these people? It's, that has to be nerve wracking on the child.

Rebecca Gruenspan (25:30.382)

Mm -hmm.

Rebecca Gruenspan (25:36.494)

Yeah, I'd imagine so. We are starting to see that more and more recently. There are some states that are allowing women whose children are placed in the foster care system to step in and make a private adoption plan for them and choose the parents versus having them stay in the system, which is beautiful.

So, we are starting to see older children who are either coming from the foster care system or who are maybe living with other family members who just can't do it anymore or sometimes the parent themselves who said I can't do it. In that case, and I'm not an expert as much in those cases, but the few that I have been part of or seen witnessed.

There is usually a therapist involved or a few who specializes in trauma and in children that will help that process. And usually, it's not just like in a hospital, basically the adoptive parent has that baby from day one. In this case, they might do some visits first and maybe that starts with an hour-long visit.

and maybe it works its way to an overnight visit and then they get returned to where they are living. And then you work up to having the child understand what's going on in whatever way they can understand it, continuing to get that counseling once the baby comes to live with you. And it's a much slower transition.

Rick Barron (27:21.102)

Wow. I mean, everything you're describing to me right now is, you know, I had no idea, no concept that I can't imagine what you have seen and experienced over the 11 years. I'm sure the world of adoption has changed from when you first started to where it is today.

I mean, what advice would you give someone if they say, I've heard of open adoption and I want to do this. I mean, what would be some of those, you know, maybe I don't know if there's a top three listing of questions to say, well, let me explain to you what you're walking into. And here's maybe again, excuse my ignorance. Here's another option that you might want to consider if you find out that this, after what I just explained to you may.

tell you, well, maybe I don't want to take this route. How else can I go about adopting a child?

Rebecca Gruenspan (28:24.622)

I would say that there's no such thing as a closed adoption anymore. We live in a world of DNA tests and technology, social media. And I think that for those people, it is adoption may not be right for them. And if they want to grow their family and they're thinking about adoption and they think that maybe surrogacy is not the right route for them for whatever reason.

Rick Barron (28:33.006)

Hmm.

Rebecca Gruenspan (28:54.414)

then I would tell them to just listen and learn for a while. You know, listen to different podcasts, read different blogs, go onto different websites, and then let's have a further discussion. Open adoption is beautiful. And also, it's kind of like extended family, right?

Rick Barron (29:12.974)

Mm -hmm.

Rebecca Gruenspan (29:21.454)

You have cousins that you don't see all the time, but they're part of your family and you love them and you have this connection. That's what it feels like to me in some ways and even more so.

Rick Barron (29:36.718)

Sure, sure. Now I know you mentioned to, I was going through my research that I know with the adoption agencies or the attorneys that what makes, not to make this difficult per se, but it is in the adoption of a child that when a person or persons come to talk with them, they find out, you know, thanks to Rebecca, these people are well -educated, they know what they're going to walk into versus someone who doesn't know anything, and they go right to the attorney.

Rebecca Gruenspan (30:14.062)

I'm so glad you brought that up because agencies love to work with families who are educated and who are supported. And that's important to know because, you know, agencies used to work in very different ways 10 years ago when adoptions were booming, that the numbers have gone down a lot and agencies can't afford all the staff that they used to have.

You know, they used to have somebody that worked with the birth mom, someone who worked with the adoptive parents, someone who, you know, when agencies are a lot of times small, right? And you have maybe one or two people who are working with everybody. They want to know that they don't have to educate you because their focus is on the birth mom. They need to take care of her. They need to support her and make sure she's getting all the resources she needs, which is what you ultimately want as an adoptive parent, as a hopeful parent, right? And so, at the same time, you are wondering, well, who's here for me? An adoption consultant is the only person, the only, you know, business, I guess, the only job, the only...the only group of people who are there solely for the adoptive parent, for the hopeful parent, to support them, to educate them, to hold their hand. And agencies love knowing that they have an educated and supported family that's going through this process. And you know, some agencies are way better at doing that for their families than others. But I think as a whole, they love that.

Rick Barron (32:01.71)

So, with the time that you've been doing this, have you ever dealt with open adoptions that are say outside the United States? Is there such a thing?

Rebecca Gruenspan (32:16.398)

There might be I don't deal with international at all yeah, it's a very different process and I don't know a whole lot about it

Rick Barron (32:20.142)

Okay. Okay. I would imagine.

Rick Barron (32:28.11)

No, no, that's good. So, what have you found in the years that you've been in this that seems to be the most difficult process through the adoption, whether it's open adoption or another method of adopting a child? Is it the waiting? Is it the financials? Is it everything? I don't know how you could define that very well. All of the above, I thought you'd say that.

Rebecca Gruenspan (32:51.694)

All of the above for sure. Yeah, I mean, you know, and everybody's journey is so unique. Some people might fly through the process and it was really quick and easy and it was their first, the first situation they presented to and they have a lot of money. And so that wasn't an issue. And other people may present to,

50 different expectant moms having lost $25 ,000 because she changed, you know, one of them changed her mind at the very end, which they are allowed to do. and you know, our living paycheck to pay check and they've been waiting for over a year. So, you never know what somebody's journey is going to be like. I would say that the people who come forward and have the easiest time.

are the people who are open to the most, who keep an open heart and open mind and continue engaging and learning, engaging in community, because that's a huge piece of it too, finding a community of people who get it in a safe and supportive environment, which isn't always easy to find in adoption because...

People have very strong opinions when it comes to all the things related to adoption. And you wanna go into a space where you can feel like you can ask anything and not have opinions thrown at you but support.

Rick Barron (34:30.126)

And that's interesting, you called out community of people. Who might those people be and why?

Rebecca Gruenspan (34:37.902)

Yeah. So as well -meaning as our family and friends are, they have no clue what adoption entails and what it is and what toll it takes on someone. When I talk about adaptive community, for instance, in my business, I have a community of adoptive families who were our clients from the last 11 years. So,

There's always going to be people behind you, beside you, and in front of you in their own journey. And all of them have been through the process. So collectively between the professionals and the families, there are so much support. Somebody has been in your shoes in the exact thing that you are experiencing and have...

a lot of advice because maybe they have just been through it. And it is, you know, I've seen some conversations in my community that I'm just in awe of and love the fact that our families are asking such deep questions. And it's just nice to have at your fingertips, someone to ask questions of that you know you're going to get some sort of answer to.

You can't do that with your family and friends. Also, you can't do that with your family and friends because our children's stories are their stories. And that's really important too. I mean, this is getting kind of post adoption, but I think it's worth mentioning because I cringe a lot when someone comes up to me and says, my neighbor adopted their son and his mom was on a lot of drugs and he's really struggling.

because of X, Y, Z, and I'm like, why are you telling me this? This is not your story to tell, right? And I say this because we need to think about if you're sharing all the things that your child came from, right? All of his biology with even your mom and your friends and your neighbors and whatever, suddenly everybody else knows your child's story before he does.

Rebecca Gruenspan (37:06.382)

I don't know, it's just something to think about. And is that something that they, when they grow up, that they're going to be comfortable knowing, great, they know my mom struggled with drugs and now I'm struggling with drugs and they know that I've been the, you know, the pain in the butt kid and they're blaming it on where I came from. Like, is that fair to that child?

Rick Barron (37:32.302)

me, I guess to try to avoid that type of dilemma. Do you offer any recommendations to these people about if you want to build a community of people, here are some recommendations and here's why you should take this path instead of going directly to your family and avoid the, you know, unnecessary gossip, if you will.

Rebecca Gruenspan (37:54.958)

Yeah, we talk about that all the time. And that's why I've built community, but there are a lot of, you know, Facebook is still great for communities, and there's still a lot of great Facebook communities for adoptive parents. Yeah.

Rick Barron (38:09.07)

Well, I didn't know that. That's good to know. Wow. Well, I gotta tell you, this is more than I could have imagined. And this is only one option we're talking about, about open adoption.

Rebecca Gruenspan (38:19.854)

Yeah, and we just talked big picture, right? We haven't even talked filling in all those steps, but yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. And that's why it's so important to have that support as you're going through it. I always say, don't try this alone.

Rick Barron (38:38.51)

From where you started to where you are now, what kind of evolution, if you will, have you seen in the adoption process? Because sure, it can't be easy, but people like yourself, if they didn't have someone like you to confine with, it has to be very challenging. So, I'm sure the world of adoption has evolved in so many ways. What have you seen that has been, now that's a positive move. guys, I don't know why you're taking this path now. That's going to make it very difficult now for someone to adopt. I mean, can you provide some examples of what you have experienced over the past 11 years in what you're doing today?

Rebecca Gruenspan (39:25.582)

Yeah, besides the cost of adoption has gone way up and, you know, due to our economy and the cost of living and all of that. So that has, has really been a hard factor for a lot of people is the cost alone. and then there's also, trends with different drug exposure through, you know, we're, we're living through an opioid epidemic right now. And this is the, this is the population where you're going to feel that the most, so that those things ebb and flow a little bit. The great things that I have seen over the years is the conversation around adoption has really expanded and picked up through shows like This Is Us on TV, right? Mainstream show who finally gets adoption right and is a wonderful top-rated show that's, you know.

I don't know if it's going to ever come back. I don't think so, but it was great. But even through TV, through social media, more people are speaking up, more adoptee voices are being heard, more birth mothers' voices are being heard. Adoptive parents' voices have always been heard, but that's not the only voice, and some will say it's not the most important voice.

And so, I think the voices being amplified is a really positive thing and conversations are happening at a much deeper level across the adoption world.

Rick Barron (41:04.27)

Are there such things as communities where people, you know, parents to be, can go to and talk to people face to face like, hey, I, I've been with your, I mean, I'm not a consultant, but I went through the adoption process. Let me tell you, my story. Is there such a thing as that today?

Rebecca Gruenspan (41:25.39)

Yeah, there's lots of conferences around the country. If you Google adoption conferences, you'll find them, and there's conferences for professionals and conferences for people thinking about adoption. I know different agencies have events, in -person events. I know that the agency that I got my home study from in Chicago, Illinois.

They have at least two events a year in person where they invite everybody and different galas and stuff. So, agencies have it. We have retreats with our families in person. And yeah, those are always the best when you can give someone else a hug and look at them in the eye and you know that you're looking in the eye of somebody who gets you, who sees you.

Rick Barron (42:16.046)

And I would imagine too that would give that person or persons even more confidence that, hey, I'm not weird. I can, you know, this can be done. And it's a beautiful moment that you want to adopt a child and bring them into the world and give them all the love that you can muster up. So, I think that's a great thing. Now you called out that, I guess, and rightly so, that cost is a big factor.

Rebecca Gruenspan (42:31.118)

Yeah.

Rick Barron (42:44.366)

But what are some of the...things that you talk to those who want to be an adoptive parent, regardless of the various options, whether it be open adoption or not or something else, that what comes to mind when you want to make sure they understand this is the world you're going to walk through to get to that process to end, hopefully adopt a child. You know, you share the various

When you get to this part of the process, you're going to have, there's going to be a lot of emotions coming into play. When you get to this part of the process, this is where the waiting starts, something along those lines. How do you help define that to the person or persons to make them understand this may be a long journey for you, but you know what? We're going to get there. How do you explain that to them?

Rebecca Gruenspan (43:43.726)

Yeah, a lot of people always say how long can I expect to wait? And I used to be able to answer that with pretty firm confidence before COVID. And things have really shifted because numbers have gone down and mostly because of that. And at the same time, I still hold so much hope and confidence that if you don't give up on the process, you will adopt your baby. It may take you three months and it might take you five years. Most of our clients still are adopting within a year.

It's a little less than what it was pre -COVID. Pre -COVID, most of our families were adopting between three to nine months of working with us. Now it's, you know, I don't know if it'll ever get back to that or not. You know, I said the numbers are going down. There's not as many women placing their babies. There's not as... And why, I'm not sure. Maybe they're, you know, single motherhood is being accepted more. That we know for sure. And who knows what the other factors are. But I always hold out hope that if you can stick with it, I think that you'll adopt your baby. It's just a matter of can you stick with it financially and emotionally. That's the hard part.

Rick Barron (45:31.022)

Yeah, that's, that's the hard part. And while, in terms of, of trends, I think you caught up, you called out that, single mother parenthood is kind of on the rise. What other trends to have you, experience that seemed to be on the rise other than single parenthood? Is it just maybe a father wanting to be an adoptive parent? I mean, what seems to be the top two or top three, if you will, that you have seen growing.

Rebecca Gruenspan (46:05.742)

I mean, primarily we see white heterosexual couples. And then I'd say gay couples are probably underneath that. And they, you know, gay males have, don't have any problem at all adopting. And then I'd say single women. It's a little bit harder. Lesbian couples a little bit harder. And then maybe single men who I haven't had the opportunity to work with.

Yet, I will tell you that the greatest need in adoption are black couples. More and more expectant moms, because they are choosing who they want to parent their child, are asking for very specific things. And many times, if they are giving birth to a child who is biracial black white or black anything they want, a family that has representation that will look like this child.

Rick Barron (47:15.534)

Well, I never would have thought of that. 

Rebecca Gruenspan (47:18.254)

Mm -hmm.

Rick Barron (47:24.046)

So, you see that gay men seem to have a better shot at adopting? Why would that be?

Rebecca Gruenspan (47:31.022)

I mean, I guess I have my own theory. My theory being there's never another mom in the picture for the birth mom to compete with. Nobody else will be called mom except for her.

Rick Barron (47:46.286)

Never would have looked at it that way. That's a pretty good way to look at it. Well, better than what I have. I couldn't think of anything. I was just curious to know. Now, you've written a great book called The Adoption Roadmap. How did that come about? And I took a peek at it, and it's quite interesting.

Rebecca Gruenspan (47:47.758)

Yeah.

That's my own little theory.

Rebecca Gruenspan (48:09.742)

Yeah, it's a short little book, an easy read, and I actually think it's a great book to share with family members or if you're just starting the process. It's our exact model that I just gave you a very broad overview of, and it goes into a lot more detail. You know how I said at the very beginning that our very first step is to educate them on what they're about to walk through, and it's basically that in written form.

Rick Barron (48:38.574)

I'm okay.

Rebecca Gruenspan (48:40.398)

I wrote it as a challenge to myself to see if I could be an author. And I was able to write it pretty quickly because I had 10 years of content and I had it all written down and I thought, well, why not put it into book form? And so, I did. I'm really proud of it. And I do think it's a fantastic resource for people either thinking about adoption to really understand what it entails.

Rick Barron (48:59.726)

You should be.

Rebecca Gruenspan (49:07.15)

and for family members because it is really difficult for family members to understand what their loved ones are going through. And it's hard also to set boundaries with our family members not to be asking all the time, is there anything new? Are you mad? Are you seeing it? You know, it's emotionally, it's really hard to be answering those questions all the time. And so, if you're able to give them a resource to say, let me show you all the things we're going through right now, then maybe they'll be able to support them better.

Rick Barron (49:40.846)

That's great. Now you said with over 10 years of content, 11 years in the business, I'm sure you have come across...lot of experiences. What would be say two, maybe even three if you will, things that you have learned about yourself going through this process of 11 years of guiding people through the process of adoption.

Rebecca Gruenspan (50:05.966)

Mm.

Rebecca Gruenspan (50:16.334)

That's a good question. What have I learned about myself?

You know, there are days.

I don't know if this is as much a lesson, but there are days where I get on the phone and I screech in excitement with a family who just got matched or who just adopted. And I celebrate and I feel that excitement with them. And I hang up the call and the next phone call is somebody crying because the birth mom just changed her mind after they spent a week with the baby and having to be there for them just as I was for the people who were celebrating. And it's a really hard dichotomy to go through in a day. And I think that maybe one of the things I've learned about myself is the way I can adapt to quickly.

To some of the highest highs and the lowest lows and be able to be there for somebody and not let one affect the other. I also have to be able to get up and keep going after I've had a week of three disappointments and you can't take it anymore. Like I can't take my family's going through another disappointment. Why do I do this to myself?

Rebecca Gruenspan (51:53.166)

And I have to remind myself that I do it for that call that I'm getting next week of celebration.

I have learned how much I still have to learn.

I think sometimes I know everything and then my son will bring something up because I adapted my son that I'm like, my gosh, I don't know how to deal with this. I don't know this part of things when it comes to adoption. Or I sit in on events, educational events that I put together or I'm interviewing somebody or I'm sitting in a conference.

And I'm constantly still learning. And I'm constantly coming up with new situations that I couldn't even think up. There is so much in this industry that you don't know you don't know. And that includes after you become a parent and an educator like I am. So, there's still a lot that I don't know that I continue learning. And I think finally,

From a business standpoint, what I have learned is that no matter what industry you're in, you have to be a marketer on top of everything else.

Rick Barron (53:25.038)

Amen to that. No, I think everything you called out, I think if I had to put in a nutshell, you have to have a very thick skin because of what you described, because I was thinking about that as you were describing, you know, this world of adoption, open adoption and what have you. And the constant ups and downs that you entail during the course of even a day, it's...I admire you that you can get up in the morning and just keep charging because like you, I realized there, you're going to have those moments, but there is going to be, those are rich moments that makes it all worth it. So, you know, I mean, stick to your guns. so, we've, we've covered a lot in this discussion and.

Rebecca Gruenspan (54:07.978)

Absolutely.

Rick Barron (54:22.67)

In the world of adoption, what thoughts would you want to leave those who are about to enter this world that would give them some sense of comfort? You know, stick with it. You can make it happen. And I think you've said a lot, but if you wanted to say, keep this thought in mind, what would you leave with them?

Rebecca Gruenspan (54:53.358)

The first thing that came to mind is that adoption is a beautifully complex way to build your family.

It's complex and it's just as beautiful as it is complex. There's no one that's more than the other. And if you are a resilient person, and most people are, if they want something bad enough, then you can do this. And you have to know though that you are committing...to a lifetime of education, you can't go through this process thinking, I'm going to bring my baby home and that's the end of my journey. That is the end of one part of your journey and the beginning of another. And that learning process has to continue if you want to be the best parent for your child and I know you do. And if you can do that and really make a commitment to yourself, that that journey does not end when you bring that sweet baby home, then you will be able to fully embrace the complexity and the beauty of what adoption is.

Rick Barron (56:15.15)

Well, that's great. You know, I think that for me, this conversation has been, I'm not going to say it was nice. I'm going to say it was beautiful. And to the folks out there who are wanting to, with a lot of love to embark on wanting to adopt a child, if you get in touch with Rebecca, and this is my opinion,

Rebecca Gruenspan (56:25.486)

Mmm.

Rick Barron (56:43.022)

Understand that yes, you're going to have a consultant, but based upon what I've heard today, you're going to have a friend. So, keep that in mind. And I think, I think I thank you for your generosity, your extensive knowledge of what you know about this world of adoption and, and your, your honesty as to what to be prepared for when you walk into it, but knowing.

Rebecca Gruenspan (56:54.254)

Absolutely.

Rick Barron (57:12.526)

there's a happy ending. Just stick with it. So that's it, everyone. Thank you again, Rebecca. I really enjoyed this conversation. So, for further information regarding this interview, please visit my website, which you can find on Apple Podcasts. As always, I thank you for the privilege of you listening and your interest. Be sure to subscribe here or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss an episode. See you soon.