Interview #7 Pamela Kerman - The Power of Self-Advocacy in Autism

Rick D Barron (00:00.651)

Hi everyone, I'm Rick Baron, your host, and welcome to my podcast, That's Life, I Swear. I'm going to be sharing a story about resilience, love, and unwavering determination. This is the story of raising a child with autism. I am very honored to speak with my guest, as she's a steel magnolia. Her name is Pamela Kerman.

Her journey began like any other mothers, but it soon transformed into navigating the complex, unpredictable world of raising a child with autism. Then life threw a curve ball. She became a single parent. 

Questions came up. 

How do you encourage a child's artistic talents when time and resources are scarce? 

How do you balance creative dreams with the everyday demands being a single parent. 

And how do you hold on to your belief in your child's potential when the world often fails to understand? 

Pamela will expand on those questions and she'll also share her experiences and how she advocated for her son in a sometimes-unwelcoming world. Her determination, the challenges, and the triumphs achieved by never giving up.

As a result, today, her son is not just overcoming obstacles, he's redefining them. Join me as I have my conversation with Pamela Kerman. Pamela, welcome to the show.

Pamela Kerman (01:50.338)

Thank you.

Rick D Barron (01:51.616)

Hi. So, for the benefit of the audience, could you maybe provide us kind of a introduction of your background, where you work and what are you doing today?

Pamela Kerman (02:04.344)

So, I am the mother of two adult sons. Jonathan is 35 and Nolan is 29 and Nolan is impacted by autism. And I just retired from the high-tech industry where I was a product marketeer for many, many years. So, I'm loving retirement. I'm also a volunteer for the developmental disability community and autism is part of the developmental disability conditions. I'm a volunteer and advocate in that. I'm on the board of directors for a place called San Andreas Regional Center. for fun, I'm taking Spanish lessons, trying to brush up after 50 years. And many other things I like to travel and do gardening and many other things.

Rick D Barron (03:03.451)

Well, that's great. Yeah, retirement. It's a whole new world, isn't it?

Pamela Kerman (03:07.988)

It certainly is and I love it.

Rick D Barron (03:10.219)

So, listen, you know, I had a discussion prior to doing this conversation right now, and you shared a lot of things with me, but I thought maybe we could start at the beginning of when the issue came up about Nolan and what you discovered, what were some of the hurdles that you first went through when you were told that he had severe ADHD.

Pamela Kerman (03:44.489)

Yeah, so really interesting. You know, I've been around a lot of children in my life. I when Nolan was three years old, all of a sudden, I noticed some things about him. wasn't interacting socially with other children. He wouldn't look you in the eye. He was super hyperactive and it just didn't feel like he was developing. 

And up until that point, he had exceeded his milestone, his developmental milestones. He was a very smart person and you knew that. So, I knew something was wrong. And at the time I had a son that was about eight or nine and his name is Jonathan. And he had been diagnosed a couple years earlier with ADHD. 

So, I was taking Jonathan to Kaiser for the child psychiatry team meeting with them on a regular basis. And initially the doctor there thought that Nolan had severe ADHD because both Jonathan and my husband had it. 

So, it was kind of logical, a logical thought, right? But we also discussed we were going to keep an eye on him to see if other symptoms developed. And of course they did over time. Nolan wasn't actually diagnosed with autism until he was eight years old.

That doesn't mean that I wasn't help for him in getting therapies because I was. And I can discuss that a little bit later, but it was very difficult, a very difficult time.

Rick D Barron (05:27.979)

With Nolan did he sense, did he feel like something was wrong with him or did he feel that something was wrong with the other kids?

Pamela Kerman (05:37.592)

You know, he never said that anything was wrong with the other kids. I think he probably sensed a little bit that there was something different about him. it was actually not until he was about 13 that I sat down to have the discussion with him about autism, what it was. just, said, you your brain processes information differently. You think differently. So sometimes when you communicate with people or respond to people, it's not the reaction that they expect.

That doesn't mean that you're less than, it just means that you're different. That's all.

Rick D Barron (06:12.736)

When you had that conversation with Nolan, how did he receive it? I mean, yes, you're his mother. So, did he feel more comfort hearing it from you, rather that from someone else?

Pamela Kerman (06:28.224)

I think so. I think it was the right thing to do. There's always that question as a parent, when do you discuss things like that? What's the right age? And I would say that the right age is when you think your child's ready to receive that information. But I felt like that was a good time, because that was a particularly difficult time in his life.

Rick D Barron (06:50.591)

Now that was when he was going to junior high, high school, middle school. I think you made mention of the fact that that was a very difficult time for him because other kids being, being kids would sometimes bully him or I guess maybe even make fun of him. I mean, how did he cope with that? And how did you cope with that?

Pamela Kerman (06:55.116)

Middle school. Yeah. Yeah.

Pamela Kerman (07:16.108)

Well, that was a really, I hated junior high. I hated it. I mean, I can, that's the only thing I can tell you. It was a nightmare. I hated it for many reasons, but you know, Nolan was in a combination of special ed classes and regular classes in middle school. They had the same curriculum; they just went at a slower pace. 

But the thing is that there were a lot of bullies. know, middle school is always tough for anybody, whether you have a special need or not, let's face it. But there were bullies there, like there were kids that were beating him up on the way home when he was walking home.

I addressed it with the principal who just told him, told my son, to wait a few minutes before he walked home. I kind of threw a fit about that one. I said, no, no, no. The bullies need to, you need to address their actions and their behavior, not my son's. He hasn't done anything wrong. 

He had a glass of water thrown in his face when he was in, you know, PE for no reason and I addressed that with the teacher and she said, well, I'd have to understand the circumstances to which that happened. And I said, well, under what circumstances would somebody be allowed, a child be allowed to throw a glass of water in another child's face? That just doesn't make sense. So that was really, really hard. Despite all that, Nolan had a 3 .6 or 3 .7 GPA.

Rick D Barron (08:54.923)

Good for him. Good for him. I think you mentioned that when you're doing, you were doing your research on autism, you came across information that told you that there was no cure for it. That must've been a hard moment to have to absorb. How did you feel about that?

Pamela Kerman (09:10.816)

I did.

Pamela Kerman (09:17.59)

It really, yeah, it truly was. Well, you know, so when he was in school, I mentioned that, you know, when he was in elementary school, we had quite an issue with getting him the services that he needed. Because he was in private pre -K and kindergarten. And then when he was in public school...

He, in first grade, that was the first year he was in public school, we met with that team of the psychologists, the speech therapists, and the principal. And we talked to them about his needs because he was getting speech therapy and he was under what's called an IEP, an individualized education program, which really sets the goals, identifies special accommodations and that sort of thing for children with special needs. But I had to fight for those services when he first went in to first grade, he was literally ducking underneath the desk because he was so overstimulated and I had to go in for about three months and sometimes I'd crawl under the desk with him to help him. 

It was a long story, but anyway, we got him services he needed, more speech therapy, occupational therapy, and he was pulled out for academics. He was in a regular class. But I talk about this because at that point, he was not diagnosed with autism. And the school psychologist tried to put a label on him. She tried to mark him as having intellectual disabilities because when she went to test him, couldn't attend, he couldn't focus. That was part of his issue. And so, I had to fight for that too. I had to put together a rebuttal letter and get one from the psychiatrist. So then, if you fast forward to when he was eight years old and he was diagnosed through the California Diagnostic Center as being on the autism spectrum

Pamela Kerman (11:28.522)

I did start doing a lot of research. when I, as you mentioned, as I did research, it's like, OK, what is autism? mean, don't really, know, Rain Man and, you know, you hear about Rain Man or you hear about kids hitting their head, but what about if you have a kid that's somewhere not in, doesn't fall in those categories? 

It was pretty dismal because back then, we're talking 21 and a half years ago, there wasn't that much information. Then you look up, okay, well, I can help my kid. I'm always a champion for my kid. You know, I'm going to help my little boy. How am I going to do this? And you look up and it says, there's no cure. Well, what do mean there's no cure? He has a condition, there's no cure? So that's when it was heartbreaking. That's the only way I can describe it. It was very heartbreaking. But you have to keep going and try to figure out how you're going to help them. You can still help them. You can't cure them, though.

Rick D Barron (12:31.468)

Absolutely. I know in some of the areas you were describing, you kept using the phrase, I had to fight for this. I had to fight for that. What was it about that you had to fight for? Were you not getting any support from the schools itself knowing, “hey, know, Pam, I think we have a problem with your child”. Let's discuss this and here are some things we can do to offer you to help him.

Pamela Kerman (12:57.878)

Well, had to, as I was mentioning when he was in first grade, what I was told, even though I had some reports that, some diagnostic reports and reports from a speech therapist that we'd been working with, and he was already on an IEP. I had gotten him on an IEP before he started school, the Individualized Education Program, which is important for a kid with special needs. Otherwise, they don't get services that they need.

Why was I told by the school psychologists that we're going to just wait and observe him? And when I approached them when he was in first grade, well, I said, well, every minute that you're waiting to observe is a minute my child's not learning. So, I had to fight for the services that he needed, which was more speech therapy, more occupational therapy for sensory problems and muscle. 

I think it was his fine motor skills that he needed some work with, which it helped. And then being pulled out for academic resources so they could focus in a smaller group with him. And so, when I say fight, that was that. With middle school, it wasn't so much the academics, it was more fighting the bullying and stuff like that and going to the school and saying, you need to do something about this because they weren't. They weren't doing anything about it. They were just letting things go. They were horrible, horribly. 

But what it did make me realize, is how many people did not have knowledge and were just ill -informed about developmental disabilities, in particular autism. And that's when I started my volunteer and advocacy work, is when he was in middle school.

Rick D Barron (14:52.575)

Good for you. I know you mentioned something about what it's called the Idea Act. What does that entail?

Pamela Kerman (15:00.46)

Well, it's an act that talks about, it's a federal law and it talks about what the child's rights are basically. And so one of the things it says in that...that act is that there, when it comes to a school setting, that they are entitled to the least restrictive setting. And that's important because as a parent, you may have, well, this did happen to me. The school psychologist, again, in elementary school, decided it would be a good idea to put Nolan in, you know, special day classes. So, I went to look at a couple and they were so far below him. Nothing, I mean, for some kids that's the right thing, not for my son. So, I just said absolutely not, and I reminded her of the IDEA Act, which means that he is allowed to stay in the least restrictive setting. And that's what we did and pulled him out for resources. 

But again, being a knowledgeable parent really helps. I took an IEP class as soon as like when he was three or four years old and through parents helping parents because I wanted to learn. I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know anything about any of this stuff. So, I took a class and I got a handbook and that helped tremendously when it came to working with the school and setting goals. I would write my own goals and then they would take them and tweak them and put them in the proper language. But I wanted to write goals for my son.

Rick D Barron (16:32.949)

I imagine when you took these programs, obviously you met other parents going through the same trials and tribulations that you were going through. I would imagine you probably heard similar stories or maybe even worse. Would that be true or?

Pamela Kerman (16:49.437)

Yeah, I did, but I tell you when I really learned the most is when I started doing volunteer work. know, initially I was working, doing volunteer work for Autism Speaks Northern California, and I was the chair, the walk chair for a couple years and publicity chair for many years, but you learn, you meet other parents and you talk about your stories and you meet other, not just parents that you're volunteering with, but in the community. But then really for me, when I joined the board of San Andreas Regional Center, which was phenomenal for me because I really learned.

I connected with other people in the community and learned where the resources were and I could help other people to connect to resources. you know, Nolan's also a client of San Andreas Regional Center and for me that was a really, I think a real turning point because I just learned so much. And...

Rick D Barron (17:53.588)

I can imagine.

Pamela Kerman (17:55.318)

Yeah, and the reason why I decided to volunteer and be on the board with them is because I like their mission. It's people first. Through service advocacy, respect and choice. And they serve about almost 
 19 ,000 people in the industry, not in the industry, in the community through four counties. And they offer, they oversee and qualify vendors for various programs, community-based programs such as day programs, social recreation, employment programs, something called Early Start for children, zero to three. They have diagnostics services and other services, and then also other diagnostic services. But Nolan's actually doing an internship there right now, a paid internship. we're all, you know, we're very involved with the San Andreas Regional Center.

Rick D Barron (18:58.635)

That's great. How long ago did this organization come about? How long have they been around?

Pamela Kerman (19:04.33)

Well, they came about through, there's a thing called the Lanterman Act, which really says that people with developmental and intellectual disabilities deserve the same treatment as people without them. I mean, there's much more to it. Believe me, the book's very thick for the Lanterman Act. But out of that, 21 regional centers across the state were created. And San Andreas Regional Center is one of them. I'm probably going to get the year wrong, but it's been, I want to say it's been 60 years. I may not be exact on that, but it's been, and right around there. Yeah, it's been 55 or 60 years.

Rick D Barron (19:48.297)

Wow. 

Rick D Barron (19:52.905)

I mean, knowing what you went through having to fight for Nolan and knowing how long this organization has been around, do they get involved with the schools saying, hey, here's what we provide and services that we can help when kids are in need of services like Nolan?

Do they do that?

Pamela Kerman (20:17.324)

Yeah, they don't not so much involve with the school, but each child is assigned a service coordinator and the service coordinator is really like a social worker. So, they work with that person on a person-centered plan. You had you heard me mention the mission is around people first. So, they assign somebody to work with each client and create this plan and it's really right around that person. You what are their needs, what are their desires, you know, looking at all aspects of their life, you know.

What kinds of social activities do they like to do? How can we direct them towards services that fit their needs like Nolan? Like I said, he's a client and he goes to different social programs that are funded by the Regional Center. For example, he goes to Camp Krem, which is a social recreational camp. And he's been to Mount Shasta, he's been to the Grand Canyon, he's been Yosemite, I mean he's been all over and it's a really phenomenal program. So those sorts of things, yeah.

Rick D Barron (21:41.365)

What does he enjoy about Camp Krem? mean, it sounds like he's been to many places as a result of it, but what does he find the most enjoyable?

Pamela Kerman (21:50.434)

Well, first of all, Nolan likes to travel and he's very social. So, he loves talking to the counselors and talking to people and they do fun things. They went to Disneyland. I mean, who doesn't like to go to Disneyland?

The thing I like about it is when Nolan was 18, that's a point where I really felt like I needed to focus on his social needs. Because that's the other thing is when you look at a person, you have to look at a person with a developmental disability like anybody else. What are all their needs? They have social needs, have medical needs, they have...you know, psychological needs, they have all these needs. So, I think I kept thinking, I'm not doing enough for him socially, because he had a couple friends, but he didn't have that many friends. 

So, Camp Krem was such a lifesaver. mean, you know, we found that at 18 and, you know, that's a place where people with a developmental disability, they're accepted. But the thing I like about it is they go out into the community and they're integrated into the community. And that's really important too.

Rick D Barron (22:57.171)

That's great because I think they want to help build a confidence in these kids that, you know, how do I put this? You don't have a problem per se. You are a human being and you can mingle with everyone else. And regardless of what they may think, you live and don't be afraid to get out there. And I think this type of a program seems to do that, which I think is great.

Pamela Kerman (23:22.231)

Yeah.

Rick D Barron (23:26.911)

With everything that we've talked about thus far, you know, you're not knowing what autism was doing all this investigation, volunteering, having to fight for Nolan off and on. Where do you take the time to, I don't know, expand to take some time off just to kind of, you know, I need some time to be relieved of all this.

Pamela Kerman (23:54.008)

Yeah, that's a really good question. So, first of all, I'm an avid fitness enthusiast, I would say, is every day I go out for a five mile walk or jog. And that's always been part of my sanity. Keeping my sanity is taking time for myself and eating well and that sort of thing. So, I've always believed in taking care of myself because I felt like if I didn't take care of myself, how am I going to take care of my family? And so that's one thing. And I've always carved out time to go do things with friends and family. Of course, you can't do it all the time. But my sisters and my mom and I will go to the coast three times a year and I really look forward to that or I'll go to lunch with Judy or other friends and I really enjoy that. I've always felt like I had to make time for myself. It was really important. So somehow, I've weaved it in. I guess I also feel like I'm a person that has always been able to handle a lot of responsibilities and juggle a lot of balls. That's what I've done all my life.

Rick D Barron (25:14.709)

Well, I think when you're put in a situation, you know, there's only one direction to go and that's to go forward. And I think you've demonstrated, you know, what you have accomplished and what you and Nolan have accomplished. So that said, I know you mentioned he is doing an internship and I know you had called out that when he started to do a job search, it wasn't what you had hoped to be. became, I think as you said, it became a nightmare.

Can you walk us through that and how you overcame all those hurdles to where he is today?

Pamela Kerman (25:51.608)

Yeah, so, my gosh. he, Nolan, I'm so proud of him. He got his AAS degree in business information systems from Evergreen Valley College in 2022, May 2022. So, I knew, you know, I had done a lot of research and through connect, you know, seeing and meeting people, decided that he and I together decided that there was a program that he was going to go through. It was a training program called Neurodiversity Pathways.

He went through that. was about a four and a half month training program, job training program. And after that, if you fast forward, it's like January, 2023, we started the job search. We started working with the agency and to make a long story short, we worked with three different agencies and there were challenges each step of the way, not because people aren't good at their job or they're just overwhelmed. 

There's not enough funding to hire more people and there were for variety of reasons, it was very difficult. So, I mean, I was literally getting up at 5:30 am in the morning looking for jobs for him and I found two jobs where he actually got a couple of interviews, but he's out, you know, when somebody has autism, they present differently in interviews. You know, if you ask an open -ended question, you know, may not be able to answer that. And so, there were a lot of challenges.

So, in October of that year, October of last year, I happened to be in an event, actually a San Andreas Regional Center event, and I was talking to the executive director there and just having a casual conversation. 

I mentioned to him that we were really struggling to find Nolan a job. So, he said, call me next week and let's talk about maybe doing a potential internship, paid internship at San Andreas. So, I did that. I followed up with him and then Nolan went in for an interview and they hired him as a paid intern. And San Andreas Regional Center has this awesome paid internship that they work with different employers. So, it's really great. 

So, he's been working there since January of 2022 doing his internship and it goes until January of, not 22, I'm sorry, January of 2024 to January of 2025. He started out in the IT department you know, helping to do software upgrades and that sort of thing. And now he's been in the business services area and he just absolutely loves his job. It's so incredible. So, I'm very happy about that. And, you know, the next step will be to find, you know, permanent employee. But I'm so grateful. I'm just so grateful.

Rick D Barron (28:57.311)

What, yeah, no, that's great to hear. What drew Nolan's interest though into the IT world, if you will? What was it about it?

Pamela Kerman (29:06.55)

Yeah, he actually has interests in other things too, but yeah, he's always on his computer, he's always on his laptop. you know, anything that has to do with the laptop, I just think that's interesting to him. But the other part of Nolan is he's extremely social. So, the IT stuff was great, you know, he loved that and he loves that. 

And he also loves in the business services, he's working with a lot of different people and he does everything from delivering mail to people to, you know, setting up tables, to doing a variety of different things. And he really likes talking and interacting with people. And he's made some friends there and he'll eat lunch with people. you know, it's just been, the thing is that you have to think about the soft skills too that individuals acquire. unfortunately, we live in a society or community or whatever where there are so many people with developmental disabilities that are unemployed. They just can't find work. And we need to change that. We need to work on that.

Rick D Barron (30:17.461)

Yeah, you have to wonder how many of those individuals are out on the street right now as a result of that. But yeah, no doubt. From the time that Nolan was in grammar school, middle school, high school, and now doing this internship, what had been some of the growth patterns that you have noticed in him from those milestones, if you will, to where he would say, you know, he never was confident in doing this. Now he has it. What were some of the attributes that you have noticed through this journey? 

Because the two of you have taken this journey together and as a result of it, you know, he is where he is right now. And hopefully there's going to be bigger things waiting for him. But what are some of the attributes that you've noticed over the time that he's been in these programs, the internship, going to Camp Krem, and all that.

Pamela Kerman (31:21.56)

Well, certainly when he was younger, as I mentioned, he wouldn't look you in the eye. the social learning social cues and being able to socialize, know, it started out, it was kind of scary when he was about three or four and he wasn't doing any of that. So that's certainly one of them and he's extremely social. So I think learning that, think he's a polite person. He'll open a door for somebody, definitely open a door. He always talks to people and says, you know, hello and how are you? And if you tell them that you've had an issue, he will ask you to see how you're doing. He will always ask you how you see how you're doing.

He has great memory too. Incredible memory, but I think the biggest thing of course is just seeing his independence, is seeing him grow in terms of independence. Like I was gone one weekend, Nolan doesn't drive, so I was gone one weekend. Typically, I take him a lot of places, but he also has Uber, Uber certificates, so he can call Uber. So, he had at one point, he had had to download the Uber app and then he wanted to go to the grocery store. 

So, he downloaded the Uber app and took Uber there and came back and he uses Uber all the time. Now this has been like, a year ago or something. He uses it all the time. So, I'd say he grows in independence. I mean, he does his own grocery shopping when we go. He'll buy things. I'll buy things. He knows how to cook. He's a pretty good cook. He can do his laundry. So certainly, in terms of independence and confidence and I think just growing in that area and I also have seen that he's able to focus a lot more as he's gotten older. When he was younger, that was an issue. So, there's a lot of things that he's grown in and he's certainly achieved a lot in his life.

Rick D Barron (33:35.657)

You think he's kind of surprised himself on what he can accomplish today now versus what it was, you know, several years ago. would imagine he probably felt kind of trapped per se, but now from what you have shared in this discussion, I think he's realizing this world is something that I can deal with. 

Yeah, there's going to be some hurdles, but I have the confidence in myself that I can do this, especially thanks to you. I mean, again, you guys took this journey together and I have to imagine from what you have shared, it has not been easy. So, yeah. So, to that end, I mean, what would you tell a parent or parents today about, you know, if this were to happen to them, I don't know.

Like don't panic, there are ways to deal with this. I what could you share with them?

Pamela Kerman (34:37.836)

Yeah, so a couple other things I wanted to mention as I go into this, my response is Nolan also has done some self -advocacy work, which I really encouraged him to do. And I think that's also created a lot of confidence. And I think he's not surprised at himself, honestly. I think he has the self -confidence. He did like he did training for EMTs with the State Council on Developmental Disability, a public service announcement for San Jose police officers like a training video. He's done speaking. He did a public forum, autism public forum at Cisco. So, he's done a lot of things. I think, and I say, and I preface the answer to that question with this because what I would say to parents is there are a few things. Number one, the thing about that you have to understand is number, you have to look at your child in a holistic fashion. You cannot look at them and look at one piece of their life. You have to look at, I've said this a couple times during our discussion, social, education, physical.

You have to look at all those aspects and you have to be the advocate for your child. Throughout their life, you're probably going to have to be their advocate. And you have to be flexible when you're putting together plans for your child because sometimes things change and you have to be able to change with them. 

And you also have to not let people tell you what your child can't do. You have to say what they can do. You have to focus on what they can do. And you have to impart that on your child too. mean, the thing is, there's a spectrum. People are on a spectrum with the developmental disabilities, we know for a fact. So not everybody's going to be capable of doing everything. But the thing is, you identify what they can do and you really focus and you enhance that. You encourage them.

Pamela Kerman (36:44.684)

If they are more like Nolan and are able to do higher level things, then you encourage them and you tell them, you know, give it your best, do the best you can. I tell Nolan, if you want to be successful, you can be, but it's up to you. I will help you get there. But you, you know, if you feel motivated and you want to put in the effort, then I will help you get there.

So, I would say that the other thing with parents, so encourage your child to be an advocate for themselves too, as much as you can. And then the other thing I would say is do your research. There's a lot of, it's so different now than when I was raising Nolan.

Because you have different resources you can go to. There's the Autism Society. There's php.com. San Andreas Regional Center, sarc.org, they have stuff on research. There's the Associated Regional Centers that have information. There are so many different places where you can go to get information now that you couldn't then. And do your networking. You know, do vol if you can volunteer for organizations because you learn so much and you get free training, you know, on different topics that are really relevant to you. And you meet other parents and you network. So, volunteer work and advocacy work is great.

I, you know, meet legislators. That's one thing too, is being on the board. meet with legislators too. And we have, I feel like we have been able to impact legislation at the state level, at the local level, really important too. So, there's, there are a lot of things I would advise and I love connecting with parents and I love being able to provide them with information on things that I wish I would have known, but I do know now.

Rick D Barron (38:47.445)

You know from the earlier times when you were helping Nolan with getting adjusted in grammar school, middle school, what have you, and how you were saying you were having to struggle and fight for his rights. Have those experiences improved at all within those areas of schooling that they now know more than what they did 10, 15 years ago, such that they know how to better work with the parents with their child?

Pamela Kerman (39:27.714)

They have improved, but there's also, you know, I have a friend that her specialty is working with parents on IEPs with the school. So, there are people that specialize in that now. And there might have been back then, I don't know that there were that many back then. So, I think it has gotten better. I would say it's definitely not perfect. There's so much more because the big issue that we have is, well, back then it was being informed. I think there's a lot more specialists or whatever that are focused on autism, for example, nowadays. So, I think that's better for sure. And I think schools are better informed. 

I know my sister was a former principal recently retired this year as well. you know, she was very knowledgeable about autism and about developmental disabilities. I think people were a little bit more, that doesn't mean there's still not a fight because the other issue is the resources. Do they have enough people? Do they have enough speech therapists? Do they have enough occupational therapists that they can call on? Do they have aides that can help out in the classroom, help the child in particular in the classroom. You know, all of that stuff. So, we're still not there, but it's better, I would say.

Rick D Barron (40:54.783)

Wow. Now Nolan's going through his internship and what would happen next? What happens after he completes that? Where does he go from there? Another internship or what?

Pamela Kerman (41:05.184)

Well, he can actually. He can do another internship. And that's a possibility. But our goal is to find him a permanent job. Definitely would take an internship if that's what comes available. We want to keep him going in the workforce. I mean, now he'll have a year's experience instead of no experience.

And so that has to help him. my hope is that we get to a point in society where we look at people with developmental or intellectual disabilities in a different way, and that we look at them as a person first and their disability second. Like that's a characteristic of who they are and understand and gain an understanding that they have the same needs we have. They have to have housing. They have to have food. They need employment, gain full employment.

And they need social opportunities. So, they need to be accepted in social circles by employers and by other things, affordable housing. So, they need all of that stuff, just like we do. And that's what people, I really want people to understand that.

Rick D Barron (42:37.675)

You know, it's going to take a journey for sure. Now, do you know if any tech companies are starting programs to get people such as Nolan into the job market with, you know, say they're a company per se to do not just an internship per se, but a full-time job.

Pamela Kerman (42:59.394)

There are companies, SAP has had their autism, I think it's Autism at Work program for years, Microsoft, Google, there are tech companies that have them. there are definitely some tech companies. In other industries too, there's other places like home suites, just different industries, home suites in Fremont, I know they employ people with developmental disabilities. Everyone sees places like Safeway all the time, Walgreens.

Rick D Barron (43:05.599)

Mm

Pamela Kerman (43:29.578)

There are lot of different places. I would say that what I see the most is retail. And that was the issue that we faced because Nolan didn't, we weren't looking for retail job for him. And he probably could have gotten placed in one of the, through one of the agencies had we decided to, that he wanted to, or had he decided that he wanted to be in retail. So that's a challenge.

Rick D Barron (43:54.687)

I mean that that's all well and good. And I'm glad there are services out there that will help individuals like Nolan, but I think Nolan and others, you know they want a piece of the pie to it. It's like hey, I want to go work at Google. I want to go work and Microsoft. No, I don't know what the curriculum is to have someone be able to qualify. But I have been hearing and reading where companies that you've mentioned are starting to do that. And I think that that's a great thing that, you know, it's one of those things where, yeah, it's getting better. People are understanding these are human beings. They can do this work. We just have to provide them the guidance to get there.

Pamela Kerman (44:40.738)

Yeah, no, that's true. And I think part of employing people with developmental or intellectual disabilities is that you have to look at the person themself. They're going to need you know, they're going to need maybe some extra help. for example, many programs or many people that are, I know through the regional center at least, can get job coaching. So, they have a job coach that comes on site that helps. 

But also, it's important to train the employees and the management at the organization because they have to understand that person. You know, don't want employees thinking, this person's really weird. But if they understand more about the person and about their autism, for example, then they can help accommodate that, I guess. So, I think there are a lot of challenges with the whole employment process. And even with interviewing, I mentioned earlier you know, somebody asked my son an open-ended question. Well, he needs to think about it. It needs more time.

Rick D Barron (45:59.059)

I would think someone who does the interviewing process that would have to have a working knowledge of these types of candidates to ask the right question in a manner that, okay, that's the answer I was looking for rather than asking an open-ended question, could, and this is my thought could cause some confusion knowing if, well, had you asked the question this way, you would have gotten the answer that would tell you, okay, this person is now telegraphing to me that he or she can do this job.

Pamela Kerman (46:36.824)

Yeah. And that's the thing is that a lot of times they don't know what they don't know. So that's why they have to be trained in that area. that's certainly one aspect. And things like submitting the questions to them ahead of time, give them a chance to think about it. it's not that employers are being asked. And I've talked to Contra Costa County. They have a program there.

They started a couple people with internships and then they moved into, they hired them permanently and the person has to qualify, have the qualifications for the job. So they do not change that. That they need to know this, this and that. That's their qualification.

What they change is, like I said, having a job coach or the whole interviewing process. So I really want to see us as a community get to that. that's one of my hot buttons anyway.

Rick D Barron (47:42.616)

What does Nolan want to do? I mean, he's doing this internship, has he said, this is what I want to do, mom. I think I've found my calling. Has he ever shared that with you?

Pamela Kerman (47:53.75)

Well, he loves his job. He would love to work there permanently. mean, he just loves that. He just loves it. just likes. I don't think it's important exactly what he does. I mean, there are certain things, you know, but he likes being out with the people. He likes feeling like he's doing something useful and he loves making money. I remember before I got his first paycheck, he goes, I wonder how much I'm going to make in my first paycheck. He was so excited. And he has to be at work at 10 in the morning. 

He works from 10 to 3 .30. He has a half an hour off for lunch. So, five hours, four days a week, he's working 20 hours. I have to drive him, leave at 9:30 am. He's not going to be late, even though it's only 10 minutes from our house. So, he's not going to be late. He's extremely reliable. I just, yeah, he would like to, he loves it there. So, but I think wherever Nolan lands, he's going to do really well. And that's the one thing about him is wherever he goes, whoever he works with, not just in a job, when he worked it, when he was at Evergreen Valley College, the disability student program office, they loved him there. And his job coaches love him. mean, he's very gregarious.

Rick D Barron (49:27.551)

Well, maybe there's a possibility going back there. Who knows?

Pamela Kerman (49:31.808)

Yeah, yeah. So, whatever, I'm really excited for him and his future. It's like, I'm just excited that he's doing something and he's out, because the one thing I always said is my son's never going to sit. He's not going to sit. He's too smart and he deserves to have an opportunity.

Rick D Barron (49:53.771)

With everything that you've covered thus far, and this could be a hard question to answer, what do you wish you had known before that you started doing this research to discover what you're having to deal with that, okay, here it is. I can go here to begin the process of understanding what I need to do to help my child succeed.

What might that be?

Pamela Kerman (50:26.392)

I think the biggest thing for me, if I looking back, because I mentioned I got involved with volunteer and advocacy work when he was, you know, 13, 14, I would have done that earlier.

Because I just looking back, I feel like there were so many ill-informed people. They just didn't understand it at all. And I was still learning about it myself. But I felt like if I could have done something more and also been more involved earlier on in even with legislators going to them and talking to them where now I have at least a chance to do that on occasion through the board. I think that would be the biggest thing because I also feel like not only would I help myself more, been able to help myself, but also help other people. And that's really important to me too, is to be able to pass it on to other parents that are struggling and let them know. I have, you know, people know that I'm involved in this and I can't tell you how many people have said, hey, can you talk to a friend? Can you talk to my neighbor? And I've done that over the years and I really like that because I know, I feel like that's my way of giving back and helping people.

Rick D Barron (51:55.103)

Well, that's great. Well, like you said earlier, it's, networking, getting in touch with all those people. So, we've covered a lot of ground here in the journey that both you and Nolan have taken. And over all this period of time, what closing thoughts would you like to leave the listeners today? I mean, you've, you've covered a lot, but if you had to leave them with one gleaming thought, what might that be?

Pamela Kerman (52:27.746)

My gleaming thought, and I think I mentioned this earlier, but I'm going to say it again, is treat people with developmental disabilities like a person first. Think of them as a person first. Think about their ability difference or disability, whatever you want to call it. Second.

They are people first. They deserve to be accepted. They deserve to be integrated into the community and they deserve respect. And that's my thought. That's my thought for everybody. For parents, advocate, advocate, advocate. You are the most important person in your child's life. You know your child better than anybody and you're going to be the one that's going to influence the services they get, the help they get, and everything else about their life. And you need to stay on top of it.

Rick D Barron (53:28.895)

Those are very good thoughts. So that said, for further information regarding this interview, please visit my website, which you can find on Apple podcast. As always, I thank you for the privilege of you listening and your interest. 

So, Pamela, thank you so much for being part of this conversation. And I want to thank you again for sharing your thoughts, your emotions and your experience of what you are going to have gone through to get to this point.

So, I thank you very much.

Pamela Kerman (54:00.386)

Thank you so much for having me, Rick. I really enjoyed it.

Rick D Barron (54:04.103)

Okay, with that said, everyone take care and we'll talk to you soon.