Interview #9 Lee Jackson - The Journey of 'Getting Good' in Life

Transcript, Feb. 12, 2025

Rick D Barron (00:08.621)

Hi everyone. I'm Rick Baron, your host, and welcome to my podcast. That's life, I swear. My guest today is Lee Jackson, an award-winning motivational speaker and presentation coach. Lee's mission in life is helping people get good at, well, life. He's all about being practical. No fluff advice.

Rick D Barron (00:37.611)

And he knows that true motivation isn't about flashy pep talks. It's about building real connections. What makes us tick? With a flair for delivering engaging down-to-earth talks, Lee doesn't just inspire. He equips people with the tools they need to bring out the best in themselves. Please join me as I have my conversation with Lee Jackson, a man who delivers equal parts wisdom, humor, and a good old fashion reality check. 

Lee, welcome to the show, my friend.

Lee Jackson (01:11.832)

Thanks Rick. Wow that was a great introduction. must write that one down and thank you. Well bless you for that. I'll send you that. I'll send $20 in the post for you. Thank you. That's lovely.

Rick D Barron (01:15.437)

Well, I think it's well deserved.

Rick D Barron (01:21.997)

So, I think for the benefit of our audience, know, motivational speaker has so many ways of how you can look at that. How would you interpret that from your perspective over the years that you've been doing it as well?

Lee Jackson (01:39.852)

Yeah, yeah, so that's seven, years sort of full-time professional. Before that I was, did another 14 years communicating with young people, but I'll talk about that maybe later on. Yeah, so motivational speaking here in the UK has a very different connotation to it, has maybe in the States, for instance. So our culture over here is very different. The reality is I call myself that Rick because that's what people put into Google.

Lee Jackson (02:09.272)

call myself that because that's how people find me often. And in fact, I've had two inquiries today. And, you know, one was from a referral and another one, but people, even if people get referred to me, they immediately put my name in. So quite often the Google does its work and I get, you know, I get inquiries and stuff like that. So you have to put it in, but really I don't like the title is the honest answer, Rick. I feel that I'm, I should be wearing like a really shiny suit and

running around the stage going yee-haw all the time, where it's not really my style.

Rick D Barron (02:42.893)

So in terms of being a motivational speaker, I'm sure people probably tease you by saying, well, so are you always in a motivation state of mind? I mean, how do you answer that kind of a question? mean, I think you could kind of expect that of you.

Lee Jackson (02:59.778)

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, the answer is ask my wife and she will tell you that I'm not. And you see, it's unrealistic, isn't it? So, I said that I didn't particularly enjoy the title and I don't. And there's lots of reasons for that. One is that it's unrealistic to think that as a human being, you will be motivated at all times. And anyone who tells you that, I'm sorry to say, is not telling you the truth because we all have

Rick D Barron (03:27.853)

Mm-hmm.

Lee Jackson (03:29.112)

good days, not so good days, a good hour or not so good day. You know, I mean, you can't say that you'll feel fully motivated if your dog is really sick and it's in the vets being fixed and it's costing you hundreds of pounds a day and you're worrying whether your dog will live or die. You know, people aren't going to say, hey, I'm motivated because my dog's really poorly. So, you know, we have, we've got life, we've got stuff to deal with, haven't we? We've got life to deal with.

Rick D Barron (03:56.087)

Sure.

Lee Jackson (03:57.548)

And of course, the biggest secret in my industry is of course that nobody motivates, know, no human being can motivate another human being. You can't do it. You can offer suggestions, you can point them to things, you can say, hey, have you tried this or this worked for me, which is kind of what my job is. But I am fully aware that I cannot, you know, motivate anybody. What's the phrase, Ricky? You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Rick D Barron (04:27.517)

Right. No, that's a good one. I mean, I think this is for some people. They perceive life as mere survival. And yet there's there's hope in thinking that, you know, you have to make deliberate choices to determine how to climb out of that ditch, so to speak. 

Have you ever come across individuals like that where you spoke to them individually or maybe as a group that you instead of looking at life half-baked, you you, the individual, has to determine, how do I get out of this? Because I can't have someone, someone's not gonna hold my hand. It's just me. So have you ever been in a situation like that? Where you spoke to people in those terms?

Lee Jackson (05:18.35)

Yeah, I mean, I meet everybody in all sorts of different parts of life. And I heard on the radio this morning, actually, the famous Beatles song, Help, you probably know it. Help, need someone, help, you know, not just anyone. And you never know with Beatles stuff, because there's a lot of stuff. But the DJ was saying, he was on BBC radio, so maybe it wasn't just completely made up. But they were saying that maybe...

Rick D Barron (05:28.511)

Hmm. yes.

Lee Jackson (05:46.072)

there's rumors that that song was about John Lennon's mental health at the time, that he was struggling and he was trying to reach out to people. And I think that's one of the big things that works, Rick, that, you know, is that quite often people, think that personal development or self-development or self-help or anything like that that you call it, they think it's all down to us. And of course we live in community for a reason. 

So when you're talking to somebody, one of the best things I say to them, and I've written it in my book called The Power of Connection, and it's like, who are you connected to? Who can help you at this point? Who can help you? So yeah, I often speak to people who are struggling. T

he most wonderful things that I get after a talk I did, so just after lockdown, when we were kind of back in the room, but it was a little bit nervous, do you remember that time?

Rick D Barron (06:43.719)

Absolutely, no in a blink of an eye

Lee Jackson (06:45.474)

It doesn't seem long ago, does it? It doesn't seem long ago.

Yeah, and that's five years since lockdown almost now. And I remember going back into the room and I did a big talk in this room and this guy came up to me afterwards and he looked kind of, you know, he looked like he shouldn't have been there. He looked sort of different to his colleagues. He was obviously struggling. And he came up to me afterwards and I was having like a cup of tea and I think they'd offered me, it was like a buffet meal. I think I've got a sandwich or something.

And he just came and everyone was pretty much ignoring me, which sometimes happens after a talk because you've said some stuff sometimes that they need to reflect on and they don't want to talk to you about it. It happens, right? So I'm fine. I don't need I don't need people to tell me how great I was after a talk. I'm secure enough without that. But this guy came up to me and he sort of said, listen, he looked around like this and he went.

Rick D Barron (07:21.719)

Sure.

Lee Jackson (07:42.232)

You've really helped me today. You've just helped me. I've been really struggling and you've just helped me and you've given me hope. You've given me something that will help me to get out. And then he listed a lot of things that have been happening to him, including, including, you know, some tough times at work and also some bereavement in his family. And you know what? It was just those little moments. And those little moments are just like, yeah, that's great. So I didn't tell the client. I didn't tell his colleagues.

He quietly told me, and just thought, what a privilege it is to help him in some way, you know? So yeah, a lot of people are struggling, Rick, you know what mean? A lot of people are struggling quietly, you know?

Rick D Barron (08:23.149)

Well, in terms of that, it's kind of a good segue. You, you express how this person spoke to you after the show, kind of in confidence and kind of looking both ways to see if anybody was listening. But I guess the question for me is in the 17 plus years you've been doing these presentations, talking to people at what point, and you probably answered the question just now with this example. At what point did you realize, you know, the audience is listening. can see it in their eyes, in their reactions. When did it really hit you like, okay, I'm making this happen and I'm helping people.

Lee Jackson (09:02.542)

Yeah, so one of the reasons why public speaking is so tiring and it's a different is because you're absolutely on it. So when there's me at the front of a room in front of 50 or 200 people, I'm reading every little face that's in front of me. 

And it's quite emotionally tiring. know, sometimes after a talk, I'm like, oh, wow, I just need to sit down, you know, just get me a biscuit and a cup of tea, you know, not coffee from the UK, Rick. So a cup of tea and a biscuit and because I'm kind of, because I'm reading the faces all the time, you know, and I'm saying, that little group over there, they're not quite as engaged. I

'll try and make sure I speak to them, draw them. So you read engagement in lots of different ways. Sometimes it's laughter, because I try and be funny if I can, because I'm talking about quite serious things, but I try and make them a bit lighter. But actually, I think when people are really engaged is those beautiful little moments when the crowd goes quiet.

Rick D Barron (10:01.389)

Hmm.

Lee Jackson (10:02.914)

and you suddenly think, okay, know, something's happening here. They're listening, they found it helpful. And obviously people can manipulate that and it's not as nice, isn't it? You see people manipulating it with various things, but sometimes in the middle of a story or I'll get to the end of story and I'll say, I'm gonna try and help you with this one. Now listen carefully to this or something like that. You sort of rev up towards something. And honestly, sometimes you can hear an audience go really quiet.

And I was speaking to a group of young people that are in their exam year. So we call it year 11. So that's the top of high school you would know it as. Yeah, so senior in high school, something like that. So, you know, they're about to take their exams. They're about to leave. They're a few months away from leaving. And I said to them, look, I've got some stuff that can help you. I've written a book to help you. And I was saying about various things. And I said, look, here's the thing I think that will help you the most.

Rick D Barron (10:42.038)

Okay.

Lee Jackson (11:01.098)

over the next few weeks and this very lively group of 15 and 16 year olds suddenly went really really quiet and they were like

Rick D Barron (11:10.422)

Wow.

Lee Jackson (11:13.358)

Okay then, I'm listening. I'm listening old man, tell me what it is. And it was my privilege to give them some tips, you know.

Rick D Barron (11:19.955)

No, I'm sure. I'm sure that must have resonated with you and kind of going back to people talking to one another and you kind of called out about the moment where we all were kind of under lockdown during COVID. It wasn't until then that some of the neighbors on my street that I used to see and just wave to and that was the extent of it. But once COVID had really soaked in with us and everybody realized, we're going to be here for a while.

My next-door neighbor said, hey, let's have a gathering of people on the street. We'll wear our mask. We'll bring some chairs and tables and we'll just talk amongst ourselves. And when we started to do that, some of the people who I used to wave to, but never would really want to speak with me, then came across the street and we started talking and we had such insightful conversations. 

And I asked, one of the neighbors and I won't say their names, but I said, why was it that you never really wanted to talk to me? And I said, well, to be honest with you, I didn't think you'd like me. Really. But you know, we hit it off. I guess what I'm getting at sometimes it takes those types of desperate moments to use a word here, to be motivated, to open up and talk to one another and just let it go.

Lee Jackson (12:42.488)

Yeah, yeah.

Lee Jackson (12:58.35)

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, COVID was either going to make us or break us, wasn't it? And obviously we lost a lot of people in COVID and it was a terrible thing and lots of really horrible things happened. But, but actually what we did see is communities come together, you know, we saw people doing stuff that they hadn't done before. I mean, we saw some randomness, but we found people helping neighbours, meeting neighbors, talking to people a bit more. I definitely talk to people more now.

Rick D Barron (13:03.253)

Yes.

Lee Jackson (13:27.96)

than I ever did before, I think. There was a moment in lockdown when I was getting pretty bored and I was working at home and I was still delivering online, know, microphone cameras, all that stuff. But I just needed some random, so I remember for a while, just, I think I even put a chair at the end of my drive and I live near a shop and then near a school. 

So, there's always parents and people going backwards and forwards. And in the end, I was just sort of, sat there talking to random strangers for an hour, you know, because I just needed that interaction. go, my extrovert side definitely came out and I was like, I'm just going to talk to random strangers. 

And now I quite like speaking to random strangers. It's in the north where I am in Yorkshire, it's a bit more normal to speak to strangers. In London, you don't do that, Rick, very often. But in the north, we do we kind of do, do you know what I mean? So.

Rick D Barron (14:01.645)

Okay.

Lee Jackson (14:25.378)

I guess maybe in California you speak to people, in New York not so much, know? It's that kind of deal.

Rick D Barron (14:30.251)

Yeah, it's different from, you know, from one state to another, maybe also from one country to another. But no, that's interesting. In terms of my research on your background, you've written several books. would call out right now because I think it's really important that people are aware that you have written several books and when they're all called, like, for example, good at life, good at

Lee Jackson (14:36.662)

Yeah.

Rick D Barron (14:59.341)

presenting get good at school and I highly recommend to people to please You know go to your local bookstore. Maybe go to Amazon And check them out. I mean, they're they're very well written.

Lee Jackson (15:12.59)

Thank you. And they're all kind of the same. He's the main ones here. Look. So get good at life is the motivational thing came out last year or 20, get good at presenting, is presentation skills, get good at school, which is the school stuff that I do. So that's kind of the, that's the sort of teenage version of that one. Really? That's what that is different content, but you know, and then I did a little one about PowerPoint cause I was really sick of, I was really sick of.

Rick D Barron (15:19.426)

Mm-hmm.

Rick D Barron (15:23.287)

Very good.

Rick D Barron (15:37.965)

We all need that.

Lee Jackson (15:41.294)

I was really sick of presenters doing bad PowerPoint. So I wrote a book about PowerPoint. Yeah, but there you go. that's, yeah, I've written loads of others, but those are my kind of main things that I talk about and deliver now. But, and they're all, they all look the same. That's the point. They're a series really. I'll probably, my next one probably will be maybe Get Good at Work will probably be my next one. There's lots of work stuff in Get Good at Life, but I might do a small work one like.

Rick D Barron (15:50.231)

Sure.

Lee Jackson (16:09.932)

You know, like, I quite like those little tiny books that you can read in, like, sort of half an hour and then, you know, you pop them in your pocket. I might do, sometimes I just like to mess about, Rick, you know what mean?

Rick D Barron (16:15.511)

Sure.

Rick D Barron (16:21.485)

No, I mean, I applaud you on that. You know, I've always had in the back of my mind to write a book and maybe I know several friends of mine who have written books. In fact, I did one with a lady who is, she's also a motivational speaker, but on a different level. And she wrote her book and I talked to her about it because she teaches some courses at Stanford.

Lee Jackson (16:35.734)

Mm. Yeah.

Rick D Barron (16:48.575)

And I asked her, did you come about writing this book? said, well, you know, it took me almost two years to put this together. said, it wasn't just a slam dunk, but she said, you know, it can be done. just have to carve out time during the course of the day and just nibble away at it and you can make it happen. I like the title though. Get good. What prompted you to use that simple title?

Lee Jackson (17:12.152)

Yeah, so when I first started doing my motivational talks, there was always, so a talk, I always think a talk is never a, a talk is never a thing. A talk is a collection of chunks that you link together, right? So you do five minutes on this and three minutes on that and five, you know, cause that's what happens in it. It's a story, data, everything else. So a talk, if you dissect it, is always little chunks of stuff you link together. And one of the chunks of things that I used to talk about was get good.

And it was about, I use a story from a talent show called Britain's Got Talent from a singer called Susan Boyle, who I think you may have just heard of in the US, but she's from the UK, she's from Scotland. And I use her kind of audition, which is a great audition to see, and it was about her getting good over time. 

So, she gets discovered at age 47, but she says in the little interview, that she's been singing since the age of 12. And what happens is, is the media and social media and websites and newspapers, they always report that, you know, overnight success, she gets discovered at 47, was an overnight success. They completely forget, of course, that she's been singing her whole adult life and when she was a teenager too. So, we missed that. I always loved that little bit. And then I thought,

Rick D Barron (18:34.925)

That kind of goes...

Lee Jackson (18:40.866)

And I think they would call it persistence, would call it marginal gains if you're into sport. But I tried to thought, thought, yeah, it's just about getting good, isn't it? Get good.

Rick D Barron (18:52.741)

It is. mean, when you look at, and that's a good point because I know I've, I've seen on our television, some of these actors who have been in the business for quite a while and singers who are quite, I watched one about Tony Bennett and his career and he was sharing with people. People seem to think that I've been at the top like this, like you said, overnight. 

He said, I when I was a kid, said, I had doors slammed in my face that, hey, you're not going to make it get out of here. But he was persistent. He kept going. He kept going and kept going until eventually one thing led to another. He said, it's, it's not an easy trail and it's not for everyone. And unless you can build up a thick skin. Yeah, you probably will not make it, but don't look at me as thinking that it happens overnight. It just doesn't.

Lee Jackson (19:48.302)

I mean, pretty much nothing happens overnight. I mean, the problem is of course, is that that can run quite deep Rick. So I meet people, young people and adults too, who think that just buying a lottery ticket is a career choice. Just buying a $1, $5, five pounds ticket is the way to change your life. 

And of course, over time, they lose all of that money you know, because the statistics are astronomical about you winning a lottery or something, but the reality is they can often put hope in, so they put hope in someone else changing their life, missing the complete point that we're the one that changes our lives because of the micro decisions and the major decisions that we make every single day. We're the one that changes our lives. You know, I don't know you very well at all, Rick. We've only chatted a couple of times, but...

Rick D Barron (20:32.395)

Mm-hmm.

Lee Jackson (20:43.832)

But you know, we all make decisions every day and I don't know how you got to where you did. I know a little bit about your industry and your background and stuff, which is already interesting to me. But I, you you made lots of decisions along the way that got you to do what you do, including now podcasting. And we forget that we are a sum of our decisions really, you know.

Rick D Barron (20:47.927)

Yeah.

Rick D Barron (20:59.415)

Sure.

Rick D Barron (21:05.527)

Well, it kind of goes back. Yeah. It kind of goes back to what I said earlier about, you know, being able to make those deliberate choices for. So, I think I shared with you early on as we're getting to know each other. When I bought my house, it was just me and I was able to purchase a house that I could afford. And for a while it was paycheck to paycheck, literally for almost a good two, two years. Easy.

And there were moments when I thought, gee, should I go ask my parents for a loan? And I was just about to go out the door and I said, no, what you're going to do is you're going to gut this out and you're going to find out who you are because these decisions are going to help mold me as I keep going through my life because I can't always expect a handout. 

And if I don't learn from this experience, I'll never learn. I got through it, but you know, it taught me a lot about myself. It taught me about there are going to be other moments in this one that are going to test you. What are you going to do about it?

Lee Jackson (22:21.016)

Yeah, being tested is great and it was, yeah, was a Hollywood star. might have been, who was it? It might have been Gwyneth Paltrow or something recently. I think I might have put that in a book, who was saying that the problem with getting famous and getting rich is that people start removing the obstacles from your life. So everything becomes easier, you know? 

So, you ring up a car and...you know, a car arrives, you know, don't get a taxi, you don't get a bus or train, a car arrives outside your house and it's your personal car and it takes you to where you want to be and then it waits outside the venue and then you get back in the car and you take, you go back home. 

Now that's a lovely thing to happen. Happened to me once or twice, I guess, over the years. Lovely. But if you did that all the time, you'd never understand transport, would you? You know, if you all got a private plane, you'd never understand

Rick D Barron (23:12.71)

Mm-mm.

Lee Jackson (23:16.546)

the joys and pains of the waiting lounge in an airport, right? So actually life isn't about removing obstacles. It's nice those things and it's nice to have posh things occasionally and be looked after. But actually, if we don't have obstacles, then we can lean towards, which is probably the least endearing thing. And that's when people become entitled.

Rick D Barron (23:43.606)

Mm-hmm.

Lee Jackson (23:44.664)

they think I'm entitled to a car, I'm entitled to this money, I'm entitled to being treated like this instead of doing the hard work and getting over some of the obstacles, know, so yeah.

Rick D Barron (23:57.678)

Well, that's a, that's a good point because I know here in the United States, I don't know how it is around the world itself, but, I just did a podcast on this just the other day where the Gen Z generation as you're entering the workforce, I'm hearing more and more individuals say, you know, working with Gen Z's is next to impossible.

 They expect this. They think they earn this. They feel like, why do I have to do that? That's just too much work. And it gets to a point where they get exasperated. Now they're starting to see a trend where some of these managers saying, that's it. I don't need you anymore. You're fired. Goodbye. 

And I think, you know, to a certain degree, you know, some of these individuals were kind of caught up in the, yeah, the COVID. didn't have the opportunities to do certain things or even do an internship. But you know, in my pocket, I say, well, okay, I'll give you that. 

But think about the people who grew up during the Great Depression here in the United States. They had to gut it out only to then have to serve in World War Two to defend democracy. They made it and still can you. But to your point,

Lee Jackson (25:11.374)

Yeah.

Rick D Barron (25:22.695)

You know, don't always expect everything is going to be given to you. You have to scrape your knees.

Lee Jackson (25:29.378)

Yeah, I think that's part of life, isn't it? I mean, it's difficult to generation things. Obviously, I work with Gen Z a little bit. I know them. I've researched generational stuff a lot. The problem with generalizing about a generation is if it's always wrong, isn't it? It's always right and it's always wrong because there's people at all different areas. you know, I know lots of entitled Gen Zs and Gen X and lots of entitled millennials as well.

Rick D Barron (25:45.548)

Mm-hmm.

Lee Jackson (25:58.848)

I understand that. So yeah, I'd be a little bit nervous about putting them all in one box, but I think there's a, there is something about, there was a kind of a meme that went around during lockdown. And it was saying, look, you know, people are comparing this to World War II. It was the closest thing we had to, it was a generational thing. I guess in the US you might've had the Vietnam War, which was a slightly different thing. But here in the UK, was pretty much, it was the Great Depression, World War II.

Rick D Barron (26:23.254)

Yes.

Lee Jackson (26:28.802)

World War I and Great Depression, World War II, and then COVID was one of the biggest things. And this meme went round and it was like, you know, my dad in World War II, whatever, and it was, you know, went to go to Japan to fight or whatever. And he says, and me, well, dad, what did you do in COVID? And it's a picture of him lying on the sofa watching Netflix. Like, there's, on one level, there's no comparison, right? You know, my, my mum is old enough. She's still around. She's in her eighties.

She was born in 1941 and she can still remember rationing. So she went without food. Like we were worried about queuing up to get into the supermarket or the store, as you would say, you know, the grocery store. actually, you know, the food was pretty much always there. I think we ran out of tea bags one day and that was about as hard as it got. But the food was still there. It was just, you know...

But my mum went without food. It wasn't till she was six, seven, eight years old, till she saw certain fruits, till she had sweets. These weren't around and yet, you know, we were struggling because, you know, we'd completed Netflix.

Lee Jackson (27:47.094)

Yeah, it's a tricky one that isn't it? It's a tricky one, but I think comparisons are interesting.

Rick D Barron (27:49.399)

So, kind of on a flip side of this coin here, again, as I've been doing my research on you, there were two things that came out that I found very interesting. Your love for basketball, but also you used to be a DJ, rapper. Can you walk us through those episodes?

Lee Jackson (28:11.726)

Yeah, well, we're going back a while now, Rick. But yeah, first of all, basketball, I still play basketball. I am in my 50s now. I think I'm the third oldest on my team. I still play. It's kind of more veterans. It's like third league, third division, local league basketball. You would probably call it a rec league. I think you'd probably call it that in the States. know, it's pretty relaxed. Can we get pretty serious? And a little bit elbow-y at times, you know.

Rick D Barron (28:17.052)

Hahaha

Rick D Barron (28:36.717)

Mm-hmm.

Lee Jackson (28:44.214)

I wear it, I do wear a gum shield when I'm playing, so it can get a bit interesting, but I'm quite small and old and a bit chubby and I understand I'm not a particularly good player, but I just play because it's just good for my head to play and it's good to be part of a team. I work on my own most of the time. It's nice to be part of a team and its good exercise for me and the gym's bore me. I find a gym really boring and full of people taking selfies. It just winds me up. don't, I'm not interested, but

Rick D Barron (28:46.029)

Sure.

Lee Jackson (29:13.376)

I'll happily chase a basketball around for two hours and do more work than I would do if I was in the gym, you know what mean?

Rick D Barron (29:19.597)

My wife's the same way. She used to play basketball in college when she was living in Canada. She's Canadian, by the way. And I used to ask her, you want to go for a run? said, no. Unless there's a ball involved, I'm not doing it.

Lee Jackson (29:21.368)

Yeah.

Lee Jackson (29:36.942)

And I absolutely, yeah, you can exercise more, you know, chasing a bag of wind around a court than you can doing normal things. It's a weird little thing, but yeah, and I'm a big New York Knicks fan. I'm not really into football or soccer, as you would say, as most of my friends are, I'm into NBA. So I follow the NBA. My team's doing fairly well at the moment and the NBA is interesting. And I just love, I love the kind of glitz and glamour of the NBA as well.

But also I love the fact and this is big in here in in the UK. I love the fact that there's always a Because in soccer it can be nil-nil it can be zero zero and you've sat there for 90 minutes in the freezing cold So basketball is indoors. You don't get muddy. There's always a winner and there's plenty of substitution So I'm in for all of that. Do you know what mean?

Rick D Barron (30:30.029)

well, I played soccer back in the day when I was in high school, a little bit in college and you know, my wife would ask me, what is it about soccer? And I said, no, it's, it's hard to define unless you've been out there. You wouldn't know. And particularly when you, when the score is like one to nothing, if you're not on that field, you won't understand the elation of what it means when that ball goes and hits that net. It's, it's, you have to play it.

Lee Jackson (30:33.495)

Alright.

Lee Jackson (30:57.688)

Yeah. Yeah.

Rick D Barron (30:59.477)

So, but anyway, I had a question in terms, getting back to the DJ, you used to be a rapper, yeah.

Lee Jackson (31:05.532)

the DJ. Yes, I was in a band when I was in my late teens and in my twenties and we did okay for a while and we traveled around a bit and did a lot of youth festivals actually. Did a lot of youth stuff, worked quite well. And so yeah, we ended up doing traveling abroad, did some travels in Europe, went to Switzerland and a couple of other places. 

And yeah, I'm probably making it sound bigger than it was, but we enjoyed it and we wrote some songs, wrote a couple of albums thankfully it's all pre YouTube so you can't find anything out there Rick so that's good sorry about that mate and pre YouTube that's the thing isn't it what pre YouTube? 

YouTube at once didn't exist yep that's true that's how old I am and then yeah and I was and then before that was a DJ became in a band then after that I DJed quite a lot and I still DJ occasionally

Rick D Barron (31:40.65)

darn it.

Lee Jackson (32:01.006)

I still do with like a friend's wedding occasionally or a birthday or something. Yeah. And I think that's part of my journey, right? Because everything I did in my life was pretty much about communication or reaching people. Like even when you DJ, you learn which songs move the crowd and which songs kill the crowd. You get used to, the dance floor's dying off a bit. I'll put something else on. That's very much like speaking for me. Cause I think, you know, this bit isn't quite so good. So I'll work on that bit for next bit.

Rick D Barron (32:04.236)

Right.

Lee Jackson (32:30.878)

I'll work on that bit next time. But it's okay, they look a bit quiet, but I know I've got an interesting story coming up that will lift them up. So yeah, I relate DJing to speaking quite a lot actually. Yeah, it's funny that.

Rick D Barron (32:43.277)

Sure. So, so little did you know that those little milestones in your life are leading up to this one day you being a motivational speaker. I mean, what, what was that point where you felt like this is what I want to do because I feel like in reach people and talk about them about real life issues. What was that moment? When did it hit you?

Lee Jackson (33:08.462)

So, I co-founded a charity back in the 90s and that put me and other youth workers into school situations. And pretty much schools used us to do assemblies, know, a big year group assemblies where we do talks for 20 minutes, lunchtime clubs, other things. So my other job before being a professional speaker was me speaking. I always, that kind of came to an end and I always thought, what could I do? What do I really love to do?

And I sat down and I thought, yeah, I think I really love speaking. I like the buzz of being upfront. It's a pressure. So it's not for everybody. So it's a bit of nerves involved, but I like that feeling afterwards. I like the feeling of connection. I like the feeling of seeing the little light bulbs above people's heads. That's one of the things that keeps me going. And I just thought, I wonder if I could do that for a living. And 17 years later, I guess I can. So yeah.

Rick D Barron (34:07.245)

Wow.

Lee Jackson (34:08.096)

So I've made a living, not a killing, you know, I'm just running my own business and…

Rick D Barron (34:13.389)

But you're doing something that you that you love. You have a real passion for it because I've seen some of your presentations and it's like he's having fun with this. Sure.

Lee Jackson (34:18.286)

Yeah.

Lee Jackson (34:22.766)

Yeah, why not, Isn't it funny that we talk about, we talk about like, oh, can you have fun at work? Can you have fun doing what you, yeah, absolutely. And there's something in the old adage, isn't it? You know, if you, if you can do what you love for work, you'll never work another day in your life or whatever that is. 

You know, there's, something in those kind of adages, although, although there's parts of my job that I really don't like. And that's the ad in marketing, the tax. I don't, I had to my tax a few weeks ago and I'm like, I don't.

Rick D Barron (34:50.957)

yeah.

Lee Jackson (34:53.036)

Yeah, my office is a bit of a mess today. It looks quite nice and sorted out at this little area of my office, but it's a bit of a mess. I've got loads of stuff because I've done a few gigs and I've got lots of, I love props. I use props quite a lot and I've got loads of props all over the floor of my office that all need putting away. So, so yeah, it's a bit like, you know, no job is perfect, but to have a job that you enjoy is great. I mean, the reality is, I'll be honest with you.

I've probably had mates who've been paid much more than me because they had long-term corporate careers. But I also see some of them didn't see their kids growing up. I see some of them that really struggled. And actually, they just hated their job. And I thought, I'm not prepared to swap the money, you know, because life's not all about money. There's other things too.

Rick D Barron (35:31.489)

Yeah, good point.

Lee Jackson (35:49.602)

I've had the privilege of seeing my kids grow up and now I have a grandson as well and I want to see him and I was with him yesterday. I took a day off work, Rick, and me and my wife went over and we spent a day just seeing our grandchild, which is just wonderful and I can do that. It was a quiet day. I had nothing else on. thought, so we drove an hour, drove over to Manchester and then we saw our grandson, looked after him for the day. You know, it's lovely. It's lovely.

Rick D Barron (36:06.007)

That's great.

Rick D Barron (36:16.765)

Super. That's, you know, that's something that money cannot buy. It just can't.

Lee Jackson (36:22.956)

Yeah, exactly, mean... Yeah, so anyway... Yeah, we're going pretty deep here, Rick, aren't we? Some depth, you know, right?

Rick D Barron (36:28.973)

Well, over the years too, I was curious because I've seen you talk to different types of audiences. But which one really over the time that you've been talking to these people, like you said, like 17 plus years, there's the business type audience, there's the kids who are in school. Which one kind of resonates more with you? Like I enjoy talking to all these people in variations, but this group, this segment, really, you know, grabs my heart.

Lee Jackson (37:03.534)

Yeah, what a great question. So I tried to get away from speaking in schools. I sort of tried to get away from that and I thought I don't really want to be involved in too much like that. You know, I thought surely, I just need to move on from that. But schools kept drawing me back, right, for sure. Schools kept drawing me back and I thought there's a reason for that because there is a real privilege of connecting with young people and helping them see something maybe for the first time.

Rick D Barron (37:32.033)

Yes.

Lee Jackson (37:32.216)

That's a real privilege. But I think if I was really pushed, my favorite audience, and sometimes I'll tell my clients, I think I'm too honest with my clients, Rick. I'll sometimes tell my clients, I probably work really well with slightly demotivated, slightly grumpy people who quite like their job, but they've lost their mojo a little bit, you know? They've had a hard time. 

Those are the group that I can...you know, because they're not a million miles away from reconnecting, you know, and I think that's probably one of my, that's probably one of my favorite audiences, just slightly grumpy, struggling a little bit, and I can really help them and bring them back up above the surface again, you know?

Rick D Barron (38:16.289)

Hmm. What, what, what's the draw? What, what brings you into want to talking to those types of individuals? Is it, I mean, obviously they must have a million stories, but do you hear kind of a certain trend of bot, you know, I've spoken to various people in this group, but they all seem to have a certain, top three issues per se. mean, I don't know if I'm phrasing that correctly, but what, what do you hear?

Lee Jackson (38:48.204)

Yeah, hmm, great question. So I think what I hear from people, or sometimes what I see from them, is they've just lost focus. So they've been really busy, or stressed out, or understaffed, or people have been made redundant, they've been let go of, and all of a sudden their team...

Rick D Barron (39:01.709)

Hmm.

Lee Jackson (39:16.536)

was five people and now it's three people and they're expecting to make the same outputs. I mean, the world is going to, you know, doing more for less is the trend, certainly here in the UK, I think. You know, most police officers, traffic police now, they're on their own in a car, they're not with another police officer. But you know, and that's quite a new thing, you know, for them to be on their own. And they probably should be with someone else, because just budgets and everything else. So I think there's a kind of a lot of that.

And when people are struggling and their brain is full of the struggles, then they lose sight of why they got into that job in the first place. So I had a privilege of speaking to a lot of head teachers the other day. Very stressed out, kind of 50 of them, quite stressed, a very busy job. mean, a head teacher job, head of a school or college is a really big task. And you know...

Rick D Barron (39:56.45)

Mm-hmm.

Lee Jackson (40:13.45)

lots of complaints every day, lots of stuff happening, joy and pain and all of that stuff. And they were all there. And I just got them to reconnect with, look, I know you're at a senior level now and you're the boss and you're the head, but when you got into this 25 years ago, whatever it was, why did you start teaching? Why did you start connecting? What did you get? And I say, look, frankly, you could be working in a supermarket.

You could be working in a store, you could be working in the Apple store, you could be doing anything you want. There's lots of other jobs, but why did you choose this? And let's try and reconnect with that. And that's what I try and help people to do. 

So, they call it the why, and a lot of people have talked about it for many years, but it's one of the main things that a motivational speaker would talk about is why do we do what we do? And if you can reconnect with that, it spurs you on, and it becomes very, very, motivating and I think maybe gratitude comes with that as well because gratitude is one of the best researched bit of motivation. 

So there's a lot of stuff out there which just isn't true or is not researched very well but I tell you what gratitude is and if we can remain grateful for what we have and what we've done and you know who we are and all those other things that connects us with why we do stuff and it actually really spurs us on it's not

Rick D Barron (41:16.265)

absolutely, absolutely.

Lee Jackson (41:43.062)

It's not complicated, but it just requires a bit of a retune, Rick, you know?

Rick D Barron (41:45.742)

Sure. Yeah. Well, I think in part, speaking from my side is what COVID did to a lot of us. We made, we kind of got a grasp of what's really important for us in our lives. You know, it's, it's, it's us, it's our children. You know, it's not about the job. Sure. It brings in money so you can have a good, you know, living style, if you will. 

But in the end, what is there? It's you, it's your family. That's the most precious treasure you'll ever have. And I think people sometimes just, like you said, there was one person who was doing all this talking and yet missing the growth of their children. And that's a little sad, but for some people, they prefer to take that route. Now, early on, we had a chance to kind of speak briefly before we had this discussion. And I remember I called out where I

Lee Jackson (42:16.942)

Yeah.

Rick D Barron (42:44.445)

I heard you talking on a previous show and you called out a quote where you said that perfection is the thief of joy. There's there's so I feel like there's so many meanings into that. But how do you define that from your perspective? Because I really love that quote.

Lee Jackson (43:03.34)

Yeah, it's not my quote. I forget who it is off the top of my head, but Perfections of Thief Joy is someone else's quote. But it is very useful because we talk a lot. I don't know whether you have this in the States, but in the UK, we have this phrase that's used a lot now and it happened after COVID. And the phrase is sort of looking after yourself. So, take care of yourself, right? So, a lot of people are saying, you know,

Rick D Barron (43:28.258)

Mm-hmm.

Lee Jackson (43:32.078)

you know, self-care is the phrase, right? Are you using self-care? Are you looking after yourself? You know, make sure you are and you don't forget yourself. There's a lot of that that takes place. And, excuse me, and the opposite of being kind to yourself, so caring for yourself, the opposite of being kind to yourself, which is that other phrase that's used a lot, is perfectionism. Because if you're always aiming to be perfect, you will always fail. 

And so, you can't, you can't be a perfectionist and be grateful. You can't be a perfectionist and be practicing self-care or being kind to yourself. Because, you know, at the end of this podcast, when we click this off and, you know, I can, I have a choice to make and that is, do I go through and think about all the ums and ahs that I did and the bits that maybe weren't as clear as I want it to be? 

Or do I just say, well it was a nice to chat with Rick, you know, he's a new friend of mine and you know, what a lovely chat and hopefully some people that listen to this will be helped by it. 

So, it's that kind of, you know, it's... in presentations I always, know, never aim for 10 out of 10, always aim for 6, 7, 8 or 9 out of 10 and then you'll be fine, you know? You don't need 1 out of 10 or 2 out of 10, you know what mean? Because I can help you and I can coach you to be better.

Rick D Barron (44:55.501)

Yes

Lee Jackson (44:57.292)

But you know, we sort of, know, so when I'm speaking, I'm aiming at seven, eight or nine out of 10. I've never done 10 out of 10, never in my life. And because of the way that I speak, because I don't have a script, I don't think there'll ever be a 10 out of 10. And my job isn't to do a perfect talk. My job is to engage an audience. 

Rick D Barron (45:23.013)

Absolutely. Those are good words to go by. That's kind of a good segue because again, early on when we were talking before, we did this podcast, you called out two terms, blind positivity and blind optimism. I think when people hear those terms, somebody may mistake it to mean, they're the same thing, aren't they? But they're not. Can you kind of help us define that. What does it mean?

Lee Jackson (45:56.75)

So, think being, generally being positive is a good thing, right? Because you're always gonna get a better result. If you go to work with a negative attitude, you're gonna have a worse result if you go with a positive attitude. But the problem is, is that people take, you know, blind optimism, blind positivity goes in roughly in the area of what I would call toxic positivity, right? Toxic positivity, where actually you just say to everyone,

So, someone says to you, how are you? And you say, absolutely fantastic. And there's a guy, there's a guy at my, one of my local grocery stores who's obviously into that. And he's been to lots of motivational type events. And I, I've seen him a few times and he's a nice guy to chat with, but I'll say to him, I said, how are you? And he always says, awesome, absolutely amazing. And I think, yeah, but who are you being honest with? 

Like, because if you're feeling a bit rough or you've got a bad leg or a bad back, you need to go to the doctor. So, are you always positive when you go to the doctor with a bad back? No, because you have to admit that you've got a bad back. So, we have to be careful that it's not, and there's lots of research done on kind of toxic positivity and a lot of it's been done in the States. So, it sounds like I could have a go at your nation, Rick, and I don't want to do that, but there is.

Lee Jackson (47:23.16)

There is certainly a subculture, think, quite a lot in California, I think, and in other areas of the States, where there is that kind of blind positivity. And I understand why people do it. My concern is that it doesn't allow you to deal with some of the issues in your life. It doesn't allow you to be self-reflective, because personal development's about being self-aware and reflective. And not everything in life is a unicorn and a sweetie shop, is it? 

Rick D Barron (47:39.808)

Right.

Lee Jackson (47:53.11)

You know, there is other things that are a bit rough, you know, and so you have to work that out. And so you hear some terrible advice. And there's a really interesting book. It's confusingly got two names. And one of them is called Smile or Die. And the other one's called I forget the name. I think in the States it has a different word, but it's just a beautiful book that's and she's not a negative person, but she's looked at a lot of this toxic positivity stuff. 

And even in cancer treatment, Rick, she does a big chapter about breast cancer. She had breast cancer, the author and it's Barbara, oh gosh, second name, I can never pronounce it. I'll send it to you, you put it in the show notes. It's a wonderful book. And she said that she had breast cancer and she recovered from it, but she was in a support, she got put in a support group.

Rick D Barron (48:31.915)

Hmm.

Rick D Barron (48:41.143)

Sure.

Lee Jackson (48:50.71)

And she said, you know, everyone had a pink t-shirt, everyone wore a little badge. And she said, and what was disappointing was is that those groups, some of those groups were only good vibes only. So only positive stuff only. And you've got women who were trying to reflect on their mortality and they're not sure because sometimes people recover from it and sometimes of course they don't.

And she was saying that some of these groups that when people were being honest, they would sort of close down that conversation, you know? And you're thinking, no, that's not the point of a support group. And then when you think about something like Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous, a process that's been going on for a long time and that 12 or 13 step process that they talk about, you know, that is all about brutal honesty.

Rick D Barron (49:25.882)

my gosh.

Lee Jackson (49:45.484)

It's not about masking stuff and pretending everything's wonderful. So I'm not against being positive or being optimistic and that, but if you're optimistic all the time, you will be all the time disappointed. So you have to have a... So I like to think really that there is a more helpful way of doing it, and that is to have hope.

Rick D Barron (50:06.245)

Yes. Yeah, I guess it could drive you nuts just trying to be positive every single second of the day.

Lee Jackson (50:12.413)

Yeah, I mean it's not useful, know, and gosh, yeah, there's even some research on, yeah, there's even, was reading a book recently about toxic resilience, because resilience, you know, because everything you do can have a bad side to it, and some people always take it to the extremes, but I think fostering and fostering hope and looking for hope, because hope is the, you know, the big core is, hope is the evidence of things unseen. 

So, hope is something that you can sort of hang your hat on. Positivity is just like fresh air that you can't hang anything on because you don't know what's going to happen. But you can have, and I'm sorry to be blunt again, but you can be sat at home having cancer and you can still have hope because you can be grateful for the stuff that's happening. You can have hope for the future, but that doesn't ignore what's happening in your body. Do you know what mean?

Rick D Barron (50:43.511)

Mm-hmm.

Rick D Barron (51:10.412)

Right

Lee Jackson (51:11.49)

So, it's, whereas positivity is like, ignore what's happening and let's just be positive.

Rick D Barron (51:16.589)

Well, when, as you say to have hope and I'll share a story with you, um, I came down with cancer and this happened, oh gosh, in 2017. And the way it came about is that when my wife and I got married, she, in our first year, she said, I want you to give me one Christmas wish. I said, sure. What is it? I want you to start seeing your doctor at least every year to get an annual checkup.

Rick D Barron (51:45.27)

And I thought, because she knew that it didn't go. And I said, okay, I'll do it for you. So fast forward, you know, 2017, doing my annual checkup. And my doctor said, as he was wrapping things up, he said, how long have you had that small spot on your left wrist? And I said, couple of years, I think. I said, let's get that checked out. 

So took me across the street, see a dermatologist, took a sample and he said, I'll call you back this evening with the results. And I'm driving home and I'm thinking, can't be anything. Again, that macho talk. And the phone rings that evening and the doctor says, it's melanoma. And I said, and he said, you need to come in tomorrow to talk to two other doctors on next steps. 

So, the first doctor I talked to, she explains to me the nature of what they discovered and that she said, when they make the incision here, I said, what do you mean incision? They said, well, you have to be operated on. You got to be kidding me. Anyway, she called another doctor in who was going to perform the surgery. So, he explained to me all my options and it went from good to you got to be kidding me. 

So, when I say good, it means like, you know, we'll probably just do a simple skin graph. And he said, but if it, if we find that the, I'll know what's gone too deep. I said, I gotta be honest with you to your point being blunt, you may lose your left arm. 

And when he told me that, I literally broke down and cried right in front of him. And I just thought this is not happening. Anyway, long story short, we had the surgery and it would seem like just a few seconds, because after they put me out, 

I wake up in the recovery room and my wife's there and she's looking at me and she's not saying a word. And I thought, okay, why is she not smiling or saying anything? All of a sudden, I see a tear in her eye. And I thought, God. And she goes, it went well. Everything's fine. And for me, I had to do that double check. I slowly lift up the bed sheet. said, there it is. I still have my arm. So, I guess what I'm getting at is that you don't know those things that creep up on you.

Rick D Barron (54:10.573)

And to your point to have hope that this will work. And then I also thought, okay, what if I lose my left arm? What do I do then? I just have to readjust and, and move on. And fortunately, my wife is, I mean, she's just a slice of heaven. 

I mean, we've been married for 30 years now and she's my best friend, but she, she said, look, we'll get this, we'll get through this together, regardless of how it comes out. But again, to your point, one has to have hope and not just give up.

Lee Jackson (54:47.246)

Yeah, absolutely. I was just looking for the quote because I've been looking into this a lot recently because I'd like to really talk a bit more about this. But thank you for sharing that. I had no idea. I'm sorry, Rick, if I stepped on your toes in any way.

Rick D Barron (54:56.087)

Mm-hmm.

Rick D Barron (55:00.329)

No, no, no, no. just, you know, I think this, as you said, this is a conversation. I think people need to be, at least for me, I wear my emotions on my sleeves. So I tend to be very expressive and I'll volunteer things if only to help a person understand a point in life. Like, well, here, let me give you an example. And, sometimes I'll make mention of that, not all the time. In the years that you know, that you've been talking to so many people, what?

What have you learned about yourself in these terms of just that you didn't know before? Like, wow, I never thought about that. But yeah, that's me. What have you learned in the years that you've been talking to people and their feedback to you?

Lee Jackson (55:47.554)

Yeah, hmm. Yeah, lots of big stuff here today. think, what have I learned about myself? I've learned that I'm pretty consistent, I think it's fair to say. That's not an arrogant thing. just, you you asked me the questions, I think I'm fairly consistent. What's nice is that, you know, your brain will tell, you know, I'll have days when I just will sort of walk into a room or on a zoom call and I'll absolutely just go for it and I'll just nail it and I won't even give it a second thought job done great job done move on have a cup of tea go to the next thing whatever some days I'm feeling nervous some days I'm thinking I'm overthinking it maybe a little bit but usually I still perform the same.

So, so it just goes to show you that anxiety, know, like presentation related anxiety or work related anxiety or whatever that we all suffer from at some stage. You know, if you kind of deal with it in the right way, it doesn't affect your performance. And some days you feel more nervous than others, like some days you feel healthier than others. Do you know what mean? It's like, you know, let's not talk about age, Rick, but you know, some days you just kind of, you know, you're a bit older than me, but.

Rick D Barron (57:00.247)

Sure. I hear what you're saying.

Remember Glenn Feddick.

Lee Jackson (57:08.3)

You know, look the same age as me. So, I'm freaking out a bit here, Rick. So, you know. Yes, that's right. So, there's a lot of there's a lot of that stuff, isn't there, that you? Yeah, you do reflect. So, I guess I'm fairly consistent. And I don't mean that in an arrogant way. I really don't. mean, in the kind of like. So, what it does is it helps me to say, just get on with it, Lee. It's fine. That's what that's what this client today and they booked me for something sort of in about five weeks’ time.

Rick D Barron (57:30.359)

Sure. Yeah.

Lee Jackson (57:37.166)

And already I've spoken to them this morning and already my brain is thinking about five weeks time thinking, oh, I can change that. I can add that. I've already started planning it in my head. But if I'm not careful, that could become anxiety as I worry about what I'm going to do in five weeks time. Where actually I can rest on my experience a little bit and say, I think you can do this. This will be all right, Lee. Do you know what mean?

Rick D Barron (58:01.165)

You know, I kind of do the same thing and now and then my wife will come over. In fact, I was doing it this morning and getting preparation for our discussion and she'll come by and she goes, you're overthinking again. Stop it. So, so anyway, we've, we've covered a lot of.

Lee Jackson (58:17.102)

Yeah, that's fair enough. You did send me a lot of emails, Rick, I think it's fair to say. But you know, part of that is personality types, you see. So you have to also understand what you're like as a person. And I'm still amazed that people don't understand their own personality, you know. And so, you send me a fair few emails and they're all polite and they're all helpful. And I read them and I think I responded to them all, I think, fairly quickly. you know, but...

Rick D Barron (58:22.676)

I did. I know. I did.

Lee Jackson (58:45.504)

I'm quite happy if that's the way that you process things. I'm quite happy that, I don't need to process things maybe in that detail, but if that helps you, that's fine. And that's part of me knowing, because if I know me, I know how I can interact with others, you know? And I think that's part of the self-awareness, isn't it? Knowing I've got friends who love loads of details. I've got friends who just rock up and do things. I'm trying to arrange; we're going to a comedy night next month in about a month's time with me and the four of us. 

It's like my four best friends really, the three best friends of me. And unbelievable how to organize that with blokes, honestly. Like one of them will let me know, you know, at 5 p.m. that evening, whether he's coming or not. One guy's already told me that it's in his diary, what time are we going to meet and where are we gonna meet? You know, the other guy's somewhere in the middle. Yeah, that should work out. The WhatsApp's hilarious, you know, because one guy will just rock up and we just think if he turns up, great. If he doesn't, I'll just charge him for the ticket, you know, just so that if I know who I am, I guess it helps me to understand who other people are as well.

Rick D Barron (59:58.99)

Yeah, but I think that's good. think you know if we were all the same, we'd be like would be so boring. Oh God. Just think. But I want to make sure. Because I think I'm gonna. Have a closing thought here. Go ahead, I'm sorry. Please.

Lee Jackson (01:00:03.89)

gosh. Yeah, it's like, gosh. Yeah.

Lee Jackson (01:00:15.982)

Okay, can I just? Do mind if I just interrupt? I was just looking for a quote. I wrote something down the other day, which may become like a bit of a book or something about this optimism and hope thing. I just wanted to end on this little thing. So, I wrote this today. Optimism ignores all circumstances and expects and demands a good outcome to everything. Hope, hope can last through difficult circumstances. So, the difference is that or just kind of blind optimism, blind positivity can melt away because it tries to ignore circumstances. But you can have hope through your circumstances. I think that's the subtle difference. I'm on a journey with it. I'm still chatting about it. I'm interested. I'm researching it a lot more. yeah, anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to.

Rick D Barron (01:01:06.733)

So, is this a new book that's going to be coming out that's going to entail this?

Lee Jackson (01:01:10.818)

Maybe I could do a little book of hope or there's probably loads of those around but maybe something about this. I think there's a distinctive to make, Yeah.

Rick D Barron (01:01:18.487)

Sure. No, I love that. But before we close out, I want to make sure I call out to the audience about your books again and also to go to your website, which is Lee Jackson dot org and all this information I'll put on to the show notes for people so they can get a look at this and take a look at your website and your books. And also, I think for people who have an interest to want to talk to you or have you talk to them.

Again, go to Lee’s website because there's all the information, you're going to need that you can make this possibility to get in touch with Lee. And, you know, before we close out Lee, I've done several interviews, this this conversation has been very endearing to me. think our being open with one another was something that I never expected. And I think just having like a standard list of questions per se, we just kind of bounced off one another. I think that's what life is all about. You just have to just let it flow and don't try to be so rigid and everything will just fall in place.

Lee Jackson (01:02:28.642)

Yeah, that's a nice thing. And it's been a pleasure chatting to you and

Rick D Barron (01:02:32.011)

You have any closing thoughts you want to leave with the audience or any something that pearls of wisdom?

Lee Jackson (01:02:39.319)

Well, if someone listening who's struggling, if you're struggling with motivation, if you're struggling with your job, if you've got circumstances that are struggling, then reach out to others. Not to everybody, very distinctive, not to everybody, but to a certain handful of people that you can talk to and trust. Because you're not on this in your own. Maybe your reach out is to your community. Maybe if you're connected to a church or...a religious organization, maybe there's a reach out there or maybe it's your little group of friends that you need to. 

And I'm really privileged to have like these three guys who I can't organize to get to the theater. But they've got my back, you know, I can speak to them, I can ring them day or night. They'll speak to me, you know, and it's a wonderful thing. And I'm really pleased I've got that. So yeah, if someone is struggling, don't just read a self-help book. Make a connection with someone that you trust.

Rick D Barron (01:03:22.253)

That's great.

Lee Jackson (01:03:35.0)

Don't talk to everyone, because if you talk to everyone about what you're going through, it actually makes it worse because you amplify it. But talk to some people about it. I think that makes a big difference. yeah, they've got a special link. So https://leejackson.org/ is my website. But https://leejackson.org/links/  gives you a little link page with all the direct links as well. So forward slash links, that would help. But yeah, it's lovely. It's been great to chat, Rick. I appreciate you.

Rick D Barron (01:03:40.705)

That's true.

Rick D Barron (01:03:58.725)

good, good to know.

Rick D Barron (01:04:04.277)

Yeah, this is wonderful. So, I think at this point we're going to close out the show, but I want to thank Lee for his generosity and taking time to speak with us and share his thoughts on, you know, getting good at life. So please look at my website for the audio and also the transcript of this telecast. And we look forward to hearing from you again. And we'll say goodbye. Thank you.

Lee Jackson (01:04:05.13)

Hanging out is great, thanks a lot.